ESS/EFS

[Ben Chomp]

I just picked up "Trinity Without Hierarchy", an anthology which seeks to "reclaim Nicene orthodoxy" for evangelicalism. This is really my first introduction to this debate. Have you read this volume? What are your thoughts on this discussion?

 

[Regi Addictissimus]

https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...here-are-things-now.92059/page-2#post-1126091

 

[Ben Chomp]

https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...here-are-things-now.92059/page-2#post-1126091

Thanks. Good post from Patrick.

 

[RamistThomist]

ESS/EFS = much bad. It's revamping the Trinity to justify a particular slant on complementarianism. This is a hill to die on.

Defenders like to say, "It's just a functional eternal subordination, not an ontological one." Doesn't work like that. Bruce Ware disagrees, as he correctly notes: " “function always and only follows essence. Put differently, what something can do is an expression of what it is” ( Biblical Foundations for Manhood and Womanhood, p. 76).

https://tentsofshem.wordpress.com/2016/07/09/whos-tampering-with-the-trinity/

From the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. According to the gradationist model, with each term there is a diminution of authority. Logically, then, the Holy Spirit should be the bottom-rung. But if that is the case, then why is the Holy Spirit “casting Jesus” (εκβαλλω) into the wilderness (Mark 1:12)?

 

[arapahoepark]

I have not read the volume. I read a lot of posts from Mark Jones, Carl Trueman, Liam Goligher on it, as well as Kevin Giles' works. These are men who brought attention to the slippery slope that Grudem, et al are proposing.

 

[Ben Chomp]

ESS/EFS = much bad. It's revamping the Trinity to justify a particular slant on complementarianism. This is a hill to die on.

Defenders like to say, "It's just a functional eternal subordination, not an ontological one." Doesn't work like that. Bruce Ware disagrees, as he correctly notes: " “function always and only follows essence. Put differently, what something can do is an expression of what it is” ( Biblical Foundations for Manhood and Womanhood, p. 76).

https://tentsofshem.wordpress.com/2016/07/09/whos-tampering-with-the-trinity/

From the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. According to the gradationist model, with each term there is a diminution of authority. Logically, then, the Holy Spirit should be the bottom-rung. But if that is the case, then why is the Holy Spirit “casting Jesus” (εκβαλλω) into the wilderness (Mark 1:12)?

It's very unfortunate that complementarians have gotten caught up in this.

 

[Ben Chomp]

Many talk about Christ's submission in his mission on earth. Would it be equivalent to talk about Christ's submission in his human nature? Christ submits to the Father in his human nature but is equal in authority in his divine nature. Reminds me of the Athanasian Creed...

"Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood."

 

[arapahoepark]

Many talk about Christ's submission in his mission on earth. Would it be equivalent to talk about Christ's submission in his human nature? Christ submits to the Father in his human nature but is equal in authority in his divine nature. Reminds me of the Athanasian Creed...

"Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood."

Yes.
ESS proponents have taken all of the verses on subordination (or what they have read into it) and applied them to the divine person as opposed to his mission on earth.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Many talk about Christ's submission in his mission on earth. Would it be equivalent to talk about Christ's submission in his human nature? Christ submits to the Father in his human nature but is equal in authority in his divine nature. Reminds me of the Athanasian Creed...

"Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood."

It is best to view the submission of the Son as referring to his economic role as mediator of the covenant of grace. Here is David Dickson, James Ussher, and John Owen on the subject.