Female Deacons

[larryjf]

After a sermon on 1 Tim 3 our pastor said that there is good evidence for the ordination of female deacons in the Scripture. He of course would not condone it as it goes against PCA doctrine, but i am interested in your thoughts on the matter and any other Scripture references.

It was 1 Tim 3:11 that brought it up.

 

[CDM]

Originally posted by larryjf
After a sermon on 1 Tim 3 our pastor said that there is good evidence for the ordination of female deacons in the Scripture. He of course would not condone it as it goes against PCA doctrine, but i am interested in your thoughts on the matter and any other Scripture references.

It was 1 Tim 3:11 that brought it up.

Do Deacons, in any way or any sense, have authority over men and/or the congregation?

 

[larryjf]

Do Deacons, in any way or any sense, have authority over men and/or the congregation?

I would say that is the argument put forth by the PCA, but that leads me to the question of whether Deacons really do have authority.

They do not have authority in ruling or teaching. It is not their place to discipline members of the congregation.They also do not get to vote on Session. So I would lean toward thinking they actually do not have authority that would be reserved for men in the Church.

[Edited on 7-24-2006 by larryjf]

 

[Romans922]

I think this might help some: http://www.pcahistory.org/pca/2-159.html

[Edited on 7-24-2006 by Romans922]

 

[fredtgreco]

If deacons have no authority, then what makes them different from the church member who does works of service in the church? Why ordain them?

If they have authority, then how could a woman be a deacon?

 

[sola_gratia]

I know in our church it is considered wrong, because Deacons have the ability to administer the sacraments that have been consecrated by the priest. Deacons can also vote at the councils in some decisions. We have deaconesses who serve at the church in different ways, but they have no authority over anyone except maybe small children, nor can they serve at the alter. I know this probably doesn't help in anyway, but I just thought I'd share.

 

[larryjf]

If deacons have no authority, then what makes them different from the church member who does works of service in the church? Why ordain them?

I see what you mean.
From the way the office is applied it seems the only authority is over property and money, not people.

[Edited on 7-25-2006 by larryjf]

 

[MW]

Originally posted by larryjf
After a sermon on 1 Tim 3 our pastor said that there is good evidence for the ordination of female deacons in the Scripture. He of course would not condone it as it goes against PCA doctrine, but i am interested in your thoughts on the matter and any other Scripture references.

That is interesting. I have heard the case for female "deacons" before, but I have never heard a case for "ordaining" them in Scripture.

The word deacon, like the word apostle, has both a narrow and broad meaning. Narrowly it speaks of an office, broadly it speaks of an action. In the narrow sense it is not used of women in the NT. In the broad sense, there does seem to be a case for women deacons, i.e., one who engages in the action of ministering to the saints.

 

[larryjf]

Rev. Winzer,

That's the way i have looked at it in the past - broad and narrow senses of the word.
But after the sermon my interest has been re-kindled in the topic.
He said that Phoebe in Rom. 16:1 is called by the title Deacon (servant) of the Church, which seems to be a narrow use of the term.

 

[MW]

Originally posted by larryjf
He said that Phoebe in Rom. 16:1 is called by the title Deacon (servant) of the Church, which seems to be a narrow use of the term.

Does "of the church" indicate an official office? I cannot see why it should be made determinative. Supposing, as is generally accepted, that women ministered to women, then she would have been styled "a servant of the church" in the general sense of the word.

 

[beej6]

Most translations of 1 TIm 3 would imply that elders and deacons should be male. I'll leave it to the Greek scholars to confirm or deny this. (Two exceptions I can think of are The Message and The Source.)

I know at least one PCA which has (non-ordained) deaconesses.

I suppose if the diaconate is an office of mercy and therefore also of evangelism, there is authority there, even if subordinate to the elders and even if limited to "physical" needs (money and temporal cares, vs. the elders who see after spiritual needs).

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by larryjf

If deacons have no authority, then what makes them different from the church member who does works of service in the church? Why ordain them?

I see what you mean.
From the way the office is applied it seems the only authority is over property and money, not people.

[Edited on 7-25-2006 by larryjf]

Not true. Deacons are not primarily janitors or bankers, but ministers of service (see Acts 6). The Church carries out its acts of service (e.g. aiding widows of the Church) with the diaconate supervising and exercising authority in that area.

Who exercises authority over the half dozen (hypothetically) laymen engaged in aiding the widows? Who determines how and when they are aided, and what type of aid is given - or refused? This is the essence of authority - Matthew 8:8-9.

 

[LadyFlynt]

There is a verse that states that deacons are to be husbands of one wife also...

 

[LadyCalvinist]

I've seen good people on both sides of this issue, such as Dr. Nigel Lee who has an article about it at his website. I must add that the PCA church I used to attend has deaconesses but I am not sure if they are ordained. Interestingly, most of them are the wives of deacons or elders.

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by fredtgreco
If deacons have no authority, then what makes them different from the church member who does works of service in the church? Why ordain them?

If they have authority, then how could a woman be a deacon?

Nothing else needs to be said on the subject. That's the most common-sense thing I have heard on the question.

I don't know why I hear so often that deacons have no authority. It's asinine.

 

[Dave L]

Originally posted by larryjf
After a sermon on 1 Tim 3 our pastor said that there is good evidence for the ordination of female deacons in the Scripture. He of course would not condone it as it goes against PCA doctrine, but i am interested in your thoughts on the matter and any other Scripture references.

It was 1 Tim 3:11 that brought it up.

An interesting discussion, but my attention was caught by the fact that you imply that your pastor will not condone something he finds in Scripture, because it is against the doctrine of his denomination.

 

[Pilgrim]

Originally posted by Puritanhead

Originally posted by fredtgreco
If deacons have no authority, then what makes them different from the church member who does works of service in the church? Why ordain them?

If they have authority, then how could a woman be a deacon?

Nothing else needs to be said on the subject. That's the most common-sense thing I have heard on the question.

I don't know why I hear so often that deacons have no authority. It's asinine.

When people say they have no authority, as you know it's often in reaction to the kind of authority they wield in many Southern Baptist churches, for example. In that context it means they have no biblical authority to rule in the church, fire the pastor, etc.

 

[larryjf]

An interesting discussion, but my attention was caught by the fact that you imply that your pastor will not condone something he finds in Scripture, because it is against the doctrine of his denomination.

It was also very uncharacteristic of him.
It took so many folks by suprise simply because we never had any inclination that he felt this way before.

 

[Archlute]

Contextually speaking, the case for women deacons from 1 Tim. 3:11 is quite weak.

Some argue that since the noun for women/wives (gunaikas) is not articular it cannot be rendered as "likewise, their wives", since, theoretically, the definite article would need to be emplaced for it to retain a possessive sense. That seems to be a rather slim thread to hang your case on, since "likewise, wives..." does not really constitute a difficult read of the passage.

What is much more obvious is that, since the feminine form of 'diakonos' means the act of service itself, and therefore (as in Romans 16:1) the use of this term for women (whether in its broad or narrow sense) will only be found in the masculine form, if there were women in the office of deacon they would be assumed under the masculine title in verse 8, and it would be entirely superfluous to mention them under the title of "women" in verse 11, as opposed to the common understanding of this term as referring to the officer's wives.

On the other hand, what follows in verse 12 plainly shows that those 'gunaikas' in verse 11 are indeed the wives of the deacons. Paul clearly directs the admonition of verse 12 to an all male diaconate, thus ruling out the possibility that women are included under the masculine plural form.

It would seem a little odd, with all of the extensive admonitions to male elders and deacons, that Paul would insert a mere phrase into the midst of this whole discussion regarding females in the diaconate, and then immediately return to an all male discussion. Wait, maybe he was just speaking of one more requirement for the male deacons, and that regarding their wives! Hmmmm....

[Edited on 7-26-2006 by Archlute]

[Edited on 7-26-2006 by Archlute]

 

[larryjf]

Adam,

Excellent post. It speaks volumes to me.

I always want to ask, "Why the continued push for this in the PCA?" You all know the answer.

I don't know the answer

 

[MW]

Originally posted by Archlute
What is much more obvious is that, since the feminine form of 'diakonos' means the act of service itself, and therefore (as in Romans 16:1) the use of this term for women (whether in its broad or narrow sense) will only be found in the masculine form, if there were women in the office of deacon they would be assumed under the masculine title in verse 8, and it would be entirely superfluous to mention them under the title of "women" in verse 11, as opposed to the common understanding of this term as referring to the officer's wives.

 

[Archlute]

Sorry, Larry. I've erased that last line from my post (even though it is still there for all the world to see in your citation ). I'm trying to cut down on unfair ecclesiastical broadsides, but the ongoing work of sanctification is oh, so slow!

The motives of these men may be driven by sincere exegetical misunderstanding, apart from any underlying or pre-existing ecclesiastical goals. Until I've interacted with any of them on a more personal level I'll just leave it at that.

 

[larryjf]

Adam,

At least PM me on what you were saying. You've peaked my interest, it's not fair to leave me hanging now. Your post was very insightful to me, and i would love to hear more.

 

[Kevin]

FYI

The ARP allows for women deacons. My understanding is that in most (all?) cases they are not ordained.