Future Israel

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Pilgrim

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
Anyone know of any reviews (especially more scholarly ones) of Barry Horner's [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Future-Israel-Anti-Judaism-Challenged-Commentary/dp/0805446273/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199997314&sr=8-1"]Future Israel: Why Christian Anti-Judiasm Must Be Challenged[/ame] which carries the strong endorsement of John MacArthur? It just came out in October and I haven't seen any Reformed responses yet. This is part of the same academic series by Broadman and Holman (Southern Baptist publishing house) that gave us Believer's Baptism, so we can expect it to have some influence with Baptist leaders and serious students of scripture and prophecy.

Horner apparently is a New Covenant Theologian and historic premillenialist. I have never really studied eschatology in-depth but am starting to do some more focused reading this year. Horner points to Spurgeon, H. Bonar, J.C. Ryle, M'Cheyne and others as Reformed premillenialists and says that Reformed amillenialism is a vestige of Romanism. I haven't read the book through yet. Although he thinks an actual temple will be built, Horner appears to punt on the question of reinstituted sacrifices in Eze. 40-48, saying that part isn't to be taken literally, but doesn't go into it further. This is apparently for theological reasons although throughout the book he denounces amils for adopting their eschatology for theological reasons. He also appears to spend a lot more time denouncing Reformed theologians for "anti-judiasm" and replacement theology/supercessionism than he does actually interacting with the Bible, but in fairness I haven't finished the book yet. He certainly is no Hagee, but says that Israel is still God's "beloved enemy" citing Rom. 11:28.
 
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If I am not mistaken Chris there are Reformers who still had thoughts that God would in the end bring great revival to national Isreal in the later days. I also believe there were Post mil and A mil who believed this. If I am not mistake those around Edwards time were expecting a great Jewish revival in their Post mil view. There are also those who do not believe there is any such thing.
 
PuritanCovenanter said:
If I am not mistaken Chris there are Reformers who still had thoughts that God would in the end bring great revival to national Isreal in the later days. I also believe there were Post mil and A mil who believed this. If I am not mistake those around Edwards time were expecting a great Jewish revival in their Post mil view. There are also those who do not believe there is any such thing.
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Yes, for more on the views of the Reformers and Puritans on the re-engrafting of the Jews, see Iain H. Murray's book The Puritan Hope. Although, it is true that Calvin denied this in his commentary on Romans 11.

One modern amillennialist who agrees with the view that there would be a revival among the Jews is Cornelis Venema in his book The Promise of the Future.
 
Hello Gentlemen,

Anyone know of any reviews (especially more scholarly ones) of Barry Horner's Future Israel...Horner apparently is a New Covenant Theologian and historic premillenialist.
Click to expand...

Dr. Horner practically lives down the street from me. He studied at Westminster, and his doctoral work was done on Buyan and The Pilgrim's Progress. He holds a Bible study in his home every Sunday evening, which I have attended a couple of times. He and I joke back and forth about eschatology (I am ammillenial), and he is pretty good natured even though passionate about his premillenialism. (At least, I am still welcomed to attend his Bible studies.) He has asked me to read his newest book, and once I finished he said he would be happy to sit down with me and discuss the book. I have not started it, yet.

Sincerely,

Brian
 
PuritanCovenanter said:
If I am not mistaken Chris there are Reformers who still had thoughts that God would in the end bring great revival to national Isreal in the later days. I also believe there were Post mil and A mil who believed this. If I am not mistake those around Edwards time were expecting a great Jewish revival in their Post mil view. There are also those who do not believe there is any such thing.
Click to expand...

He does mention Edwards as well. However, a Jewish revival in the last days isn't really the issue with the book. The continuing validity of the land promises and whether Christians should support the modern state of Israel is. I understand him to be arguing that to deny the continuing validity of the land promises to ethnic Israel and to deny that the modern state of Israel is of eschatological significance, you are guilty of "Anti-Judaism."

As you would expect from a premil, he accuses Patrick Fairbairn, Palmer Robertson and other amils of spiritualizing.
 
Brian Bosse said:
Hello Gentlemen,

Anyone know of any reviews (especially more scholarly ones) of Barry Horner's Future Israel...Horner apparently is a New Covenant Theologian and historic premillenialist.
Click to expand...

Dr. Horner practically lives down the street from me. He studied at Westminster, and his doctoral work was done on Buyan and The Pilgrim's Progress. He holds a Bible study in his home every Sunday evening, which I have attended a couple of times. He and I joke back and forth about eschatology (I am ammillenial), and he is pretty good natured even though passionate about his premillenialism. (At least, I am still welcomed to attend his Bible studies.) He has asked me to read his newest book, and once I finished he said he would be happy to sit down with me and discuss the book. I have not started it, yet.

Sincerely,

Brian
Click to expand...

Brian,

Thanks for your response.

Judging from the titles of some of the chapters, it appears an earlier version of his book is on his John Bunyan website, but that site has been down more than up lately.
 
Hello Pilgrim,

However, a Jewish revival in the last days isn't really the issue with the book. The continuing validity of the land promises and whether Christians should support the modern state of Israel is. I understand him to be arguing that to deny the continuing validity of the land promises to ethnic Israel and to deny that the modern state of Israel is of eschatological significance, you are guilty of "Anti-Judaism."

As you would expect from a premil, he accuses Patrick Fairbairn, Palmer Robertson and other amils of spiritualizing.
Click to expand...

This is an accurate description of Dr. Horner's position.

Brian
 
Brian Bosse said:
Hello Pilgrim,

However, a Jewish revival in the last days isn't really the issue with the book. The continuing validity of the land promises and whether Christians should support the modern state of Israel is. I understand him to be arguing that to deny the continuing validity of the land promises to ethnic Israel and to deny that the modern state of Israel is of eschatological significance, you are guilty of "Anti-Judaism."

As you would expect from a premil, he accuses Patrick Fairbairn, Palmer Robertson and other amils of spiritualizing.
Click to expand...

This is an accurate description of Dr. Horner's position.

Brian
Click to expand...

WRT the land promises he goes beyond what I would expect from a historic premil, and I think he accuses Ladd of spiritualizing and being too close to amils and reformed eschatology. I'm probably least familiar with the historic premil position but many who take that position are very similar to amil until the Second Coming. That's why I was a bit puzzled why he said that there will be a Temple but no sacrifices, which seemed to me to be somewhat arbitrary. My guess is that Dispensationalists like MacArthur would probably agree. But I should probably withhold further comment until I finish the book.
 
Reformed Baptist amillenarian Dr. Samuel Waldron is responding to Horner in a series of blog posts here. From what I gather he also is set to publish a book in response to arguments like those of Horner and MacArthur.

I concur with the remarks on the blog about Horner's sharp invectives and repeating the same things over and over, which are probably the main reasons why I haven't yet finished the book. I also agree with Dr. Waldron that Horner is essentially a dispensationalist whether he is pretrib or not. He criticizes many historic premils like Ladd for not having a sharp enough distinction between Israel and the church. In later posts I think he is going to address whether Horner is correct to identify with Spurgeon, Ryle, Bonar, etc.
 
This got me thinking. Russell Moore said the important thing to remember is that for the old (and some covenantal) dispensationalists, Israel mediated the blessings to the whole world during the Millennial Kingdom. Covenantal Premillennialism, a term I just invented, maintains that Christ mediates the blessings to the whole world, but perhaps from Jerusalem?
 
Ivanhoe said:
This got me thinking. Russell Moore said the important thing to remember is that for the old (and some covenantal) dispensationalists, Israel mediated the blessings to the whole world during the Millennial Kingdom. Covenantal Premillennialism, a term I just invented, maintains that Christ mediates the blessings to the whole world, but perhaps from Jerusalem?
Click to expand...

What little historic or covenantal premil writing I have read has has a lot more to do with what ideas the writer was opposing than with their own views so I don't have much to add to this. However, you appear to have a point in comparing the Christ centered eschatology of premils who uphold the unity of the covenant of grace and the Judeo centric views of Horner and the dispensationalists. (Horner explicitly argues for a "Judeo-centric" eschatology, arguing that anything else fails to do justice to Scripture and leads to anti-Semitism).
 
Daniel Ritchie said:
PuritanCovenanter said:
If I am not mistaken Chris there are Reformers who still had thoughts that God would in the end bring great revival to national Isreal in the later days. I also believe there were Post mil and A mil who believed this. If I am not mistake those around Edwards time were expecting a great Jewish revival in their Post mil view. There are also those who do not believe there is any such thing.
Click to expand...

Yes, for more on the views of the Reformers and Puritans on the re-engrafting of the Jews, see Iain H. Murray's book The Puritan Hope. Although, it is true that Calvin denied this in his commentary on Romans 11.

One modern amillennialist who agrees with the view that there would be a revival among the Jews is Cornelis Venema in his book The Promise of the Future.
Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken, Kenneth Gentry (Preterist) also sees a future for Israel in Rom 11.
 
 
Barry horner was interviewed on this topic this week, on Iron Sharpens Iron, radio broadcast. Sam waldren was on the following day. They can be downloaded at;Iron Sharpens Iron

Monday, March 10, 2008
DR. BARRY HORNER: "FUTURE ISRAEL: Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challenged"
MP3 Available Here

DR. BARRY HORNER, founder of Bunyan Ministries , will address the theme of his new book: FUTURE ISRAEL: Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challenged .

Author Barry E. Horner writes to persuade readers concerning the divine validity of the Jew today (based on Romans 11:28), as well as the nation of Israel and the land of Palestine, in the midst of this much debated issue within Christendom at various levels. He examines the Bible’s consistent pro-Judaic direction, namely a Judeo-centric eschatology that is a unifying feature throughout Scripture."

Not sensationalist like many other writings on this constantly debated topic, Future Israel is instead notably exegetical and theological in its argumentation.
Endorsement:

"This is by far the best treatement of Israel's future I have found. It's a welcome antidote to the widespread apathy and confusion that have clouded this vital prophetic question. I found it clear, persuasive, thoroughly biblical, and difficult to put down. Future Israel should be required reading for every pastor, seminarian, and student of Bible prophecy." -John MacArthur Pastor GRACE COMMUNITY CHURCH

Posted by James Swan at 5:24 AM
Labels: DR. BARRY HORNER, End Times, Eschatology, Israel

DR. SAM WALDRON: "THE END TIMES MADE SIMPLE: How Could Everybody Be So Wrong About Biblical Prophecy?"
MP3 Available Here

DR. SAM WALDRON, one of the pastors of the Heritage Baptist Church of Owensboro, Kentucky and the Professor of Systematic Theology at the Midwest Center for Theological Studies will address the theme of his book: THE END TIMES MADE SIMPLE: How Could Everybody Be So Wrong About Biblical Prophecy?.

Rapture? Pre-Trib? Post-Trib? Millennium? Confused? You should be! In today’s Evangelical Christian world, eschatology—or the study of the “Last Things”—has been turned into a sort of pseudo-science with a plethora of authors claiming to know exactly the scenario of events that are to take place just prior to the Lord Jesus Christ’s return. On one hand, believers are told they must follow the unbiblical, complex and bizarre scheme of Dispensationalism, with its “Secret Rapture,” political Anti-Christ and worldly Millennium. On the other, those in the “full preterist” camp tell them that all biblical prophecy has been fulfilled in the past and that they should not look for the sky to break open and Our Lord to descend in judgment and triumph. But the author of this work claims that both are wrong and that eschatology, despite what many will tell you, is really a rather simple and straight forward affair. His thesis is that there is This Age, and The Age to Come…we will be, or are, in either one or the other. Any “End Times” system that forms a hybrid of these two, or contradicts this simple formula, is unbiblical, and should be rejected! Piece by piece, Waldron strips away years of false teaching and faulty exegesis thrust upon the church to reveal what the Bible, in its own simple but profound way, says about what will happen at the end of this present age.

Dr. Waldron will also respond to Monday's provocative interview on "Iron Sharpens Iron" with Historic Premillennialist Dr. Barry Horner on his latest book: FUTURE ISRAEL: Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challenged .

Posted by James Swan at 5:37 AM
Labels: Dispensationalism, DR. SAM WALDRON, End Times, Esch
 
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