Gavin Beers: God without passions

[Reformed Covenanter]

Here is an excellent lecture by the Revd Gavin Beers on the impassibility of God:

http://www.freechurchcontinuing.org/publications/sermons/item/god-without-passions

 

[MW]

This is an exceptionally clear summation of the case for impassibility. One often wonders where to begin with an issue like this, what to say and what to omit, but Rev. Beers has brought out all the essentials without growing tedious in details.

 

[Afterthought]

What do you think about his use of "impassioned" at the end? Would "blessed forever" be a better description?

 

[MW]

What do you think about his use of "impassioned" at the end? Would "blessed forever" be a better description?

This equates to his earlier statement that God is "utterly impassioned." It is liable to misunderstanding and should be guarded with qualification and explanation, but I think he is bringing out the fact that it is not through lack that God is without passions, but rather because He is full. As explained I wouldn't quibble over the term, since the same quibbles could be made over "blessedness" as a state of existence. As long as terms are taken consistently with God being pure act they admit of a good sense.

 

[johnny]

Listening to a lot of Reverend Beers lately.
So wonderful to see him mentioned on PB, very encouraging.

 

[earl40]

This is an exceptionally clear summation of the case for impassibility. One often wonders where to begin with an issue like this, what to say and what to omit, but Rev. Beers has brought out all the essentials without growing tedious in details.

Indeed for to start with the dogmatic assertion that Our Lord does not really get angry, happy, or possess any passion immediately gets people angry.

 

[Pergamum]

This is an exceptionally clear summation of the case for impassibility. One often wonders where to begin with an issue like this, what to say and what to omit, but Rev. Beers has brought out all the essentials without growing tedious in details.

Indeed for to start with the dogmatic assertion that Our Lord does not really get angry, happy, or possess any passion immediately gets people angry.

Did you mean to type "Lord" (meaning the Lord Jesus)?

 

[earl40]

This is an exceptionally clear summation of the case for impassibility. One often wonders where to begin with an issue like this, what to say and what to omit, but Rev. Beers has brought out all the essentials without growing tedious in details.

Indeed for to start with the dogmatic assertion that Our Lord does not really get angry, happy, or possess any passion immediately gets people angry.

Did you mean to type "Lord" (meaning the Lord Jesus)?

Indeed you are correct. I should have qualified that God, in the divine essence or nature, does not get angry. Though Our Lord Jesus did indeed grow angry....in His human nature during His ministry. I currently doubt the glorified Jesus, in His humanity, gets angry today.

 

[Pergamum]

Earl,

When Christ returns and judges will anger be mixed with his judgment?

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God

 

[earl40]

Earl,

When Christ returns and judges will anger be mixed with his judgment?

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God

So if I assume Jesus comes with a righteous vengeance is the punishment compounded more greatly over the the sin committed because of His anger? Of course not because Our Lord Jesus shall met out a perfect justice no more than what was deserved.

Also do you imagine Jesus in heaven really "stewing" over the sin that is being committed on earth today? We ought to think "as if" this is so BUT I know Jesus, like the saints in heaven, do not shed any tears over what is going on down here.

 

[timfost]

John Howe may be helpful here:

But when expressions that import anger, or grief, are used, even concerning God Himself, we must sever in our conception everything of imperfection, and ascribe everything of real perfection. We are not to think such expressions signify nothing, that they have no meaning, or that nothing at all is to be attributed to Him under them.

Nor are we, again, to think they signify the same thing with what we find in ourselves, and are wont to express by those names. In the divine nature, there may be real, and yet most serene complacency and displacency, viz. that are unaccompanied with the least commotion, and import nothing of imperfection, but perfection rather, as it is a perfection to apprehend things suitably to what in themselves they are. The holy Scriptures frequently speak of God as angry, and grieved for the sins of men, and their miseries which ensue therefrom: and a real aversion and dislike is signified thereby, and by many other expressions which, in us, would signify vehement agitations of affection that we are sure can have no place in Him. We ought, therefore, in our own thoughts to ascribe to Him that calm aversion of will, in reference to the sins and miseries of men in general; and, in our own apprehensions, to remove to the utmost distance from Him all such agitations of passion or affection, even though some expressions that occur carry a great appearance thereof, should they be understood according to human measures, as they are human forms of speech. As, to instance in what is said by the glorious God Himself, and very near in sense to what we have in the text [Luke 19:41-42], what can be more pathetic than that lamenting wish, (Ps. 81:13) “Oh that my people had hearkened unto Me, and Israel had walked in my ways?”

But we must take heed, lest, under the pretence that we cannot ascribe everything to God that such expressions seem to import, we therefore ascribe nothing. We ascribe nothing, if we do not ascribe to Him a real unwillingness that men should sin on, and perish; and consequently, a real willingness that they should turn to Him, and live; which so many plain texts assert...

 

[arapahoepark]

I saw the word beer and thought oh looks interesting.

Anyway, great lecture!

 

[Pergamum]

Earl,

When Christ returns and judges will anger be mixed with his judgment?

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God

So if I assume Jesus comes with a righteous vengeance is the punishment compounded more greatly over the the sin committed because of His anger? Of course not because Our Lord Jesus shall met out a perfect justice no more than what was deserved.

Also do you imagine Jesus in heaven really "stewing" over the sin that is being committed on earth today? We ought to think "as if" this is so BUT I know Jesus, like the saints in heaven, do not shed any tears over what is going on down here.

Are you assuming that, to be perfectly just in his judgment, Jesus cannot exercise anger? In Mark 3 Jesus was angry and he also threw out the temple sellers; was He able to act perfectly just on these occasions despite His anger...even while in an unglorified body?

Also, it appears that (at least prior to the Day of Judgment) the saints in heaven (Rev 6) do cry out for justice upon the wicked and exhibit emotion. I believe that the saints in heaven may, in fact, during this time between their deaths and the Final Judgment, exercise a longing for God's justice during this interim period and may even see the unfolding of history.

As the perfect and eternal God-Man, won't God's wrath in judgment then be evidenced by the anger of Christ as He conducts the Final Judgment towards sinners? Or must we teach that the human face of Jesus the Judge be always serene as He renders each man according to his works?

 

[Pergamum]

John Howe may be helpful here:

But when expressions that import anger, or grief, are used, even concerning God Himself, we must sever in our conception everything of imperfection, and ascribe everything of real perfection. We are not to think such expressions signify nothing, that they have no meaning, or that nothing at all is to be attributed to Him under them.

Nor are we, again, to think they signify the same thing with what we find in ourselves, and are wont to express by those names. In the divine nature, there may be real, and yet most serene complacency and displacency, viz. that are unaccompanied with the least commotion, and import nothing of imperfection, but perfection rather, as it is a perfection to apprehend things suitably to what in themselves they are. The holy Scriptures frequently speak of God as angry, and grieved for the sins of men, and their miseries which ensue therefrom: and a real aversion and dislike is signified thereby, and by many other expressions which, in us, would signify vehement agitations of affection that we are sure can have no place in Him. We ought, therefore, in our own thoughts to ascribe to Him that calm aversion of will, in reference to the sins and miseries of men in general; and, in our own apprehensions, to remove to the utmost distance from Him all such agitations of passion or affection, even though some expressions that occur carry a great appearance thereof, should they be understood according to human measures, as they are human forms of speech. As, to instance in what is said by the glorious God Himself, and very near in sense to what we have in the text [Luke 19:41-42], what can be more pathetic than that lamenting wish, (Ps. 81:13) “Oh that my people had hearkened unto Me, and Israel had walked in my ways?”

But we must take heed, lest, under the pretence that we cannot ascribe everything to God that such expressions seem to import, we therefore ascribe nothing. We ascribe nothing, if we do not ascribe to Him a real unwillingness that men should sin on, and perish; and consequently, a real willingness that they should turn to Him, and live; which so many plain texts assert...

Can you give me the source of that quote. It sounds like Howe is defending the Sincere or Well-Meant Offer of the Gospel, at least in the last paragraph of your quote.

 

[timfost]

Can you give me the source of that quote. It sounds like Howe is defending the Sincere or Well-Meant Offer of the Gospel, at least in the last paragraph of your quote.

The Redeemer’s Tears Wept Over Lost Souls, in Works, vol. 2, p. 358-361

Concerning Howe on the free offer, try the link below.

http://reformedbooksonline.com/topi...e-on-gods-revealed-will-is-actually-his-will/

 

[earl40]

As the perfect and eternal God-Man, won't God's wrath in judgment then be evidenced by the anger of Christ as He conducts the Final Judgment towards sinners? Or must we teach that the human face of Jesus the Judge be always serene as He renders each man according to his works?

Not wanting to imaging what Jesus looks like now or at the last judgment and only until I see Him face to face I would surmise He will not have a frown on His face or a tear in His eye when He conducts His final judgment. To assume He will have either tear or frown on that day suggests He will be regretful (tear) and willing to recompose according to something other (anger) than the the sin committed by the sinner.

 

[Pergamum]

As the perfect and eternal God-Man, won't God's wrath in judgment then be evidenced by the anger of Christ as He conducts the Final Judgment towards sinners? Or must we teach that the human face of Jesus the Judge be always serene as He renders each man according to his works?

Not wanting to imaging what Jesus looks like now or at the last judgment and only until I see Him face to face I would surmise He will not have a frown on His face or a tear in His eye when He conducts His final judgment. To assume He will have either tear or frown on that day suggests He will be regretful (tear) and willing to recompose according to something other (anger) than the the sin committed by the sinner.

Nobody said a tear or a frown at this point, but only mentioned anger. The Jesus who returns to judge will be in human form and will be the perfect visible expression of God's disposition towards sinners:

(Isa. 66:15, sounding much like 2 Thess):
See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD.

 

[MW]

We ascribe nothing, if we do not ascribe to Him a real unwillingness that men should sin on, and perish

This makes God unwilling (1) that His decree should come to pass for His own glory, and (2) that His precepts should be magnified by judgment. This is very unhelpful to a discussion which is defending the position that God is without passions.

 

[Justified]

Excellent lecture.

 

[earl40]

Nobody said a tear or a frown at this point,: but only mentioned anger.:

I apologize for this because I myself used the word "frown" to convey what I meant by Our Lord Jesus and how he far from frowning today in anger and that He is far from being perturbed in glory, as are all the saints who are with Him in glory. How this is so is somewhat a mystery but I do know Jesus is not going around as an angry man today. The mere thought of such seems unbecoming to Our Lord Jesus. Now I would like to strongly caution us to think of Jesus "as if" He was angry today and understand this is a good thing for us unglorified humans to exercise.

 

[Pergamum]

Nobody said a tear or a frown at this point,: but only mentioned anger.:

I apologize for this because I myself used the word "frown" to convey what I meant by Our Lord Jesus and how he far from frowning today in anger and that He is far from being perturbed in glory, as are all the saints who are with Him in glory. How this is so is somewhat a mystery but I do know Jesus is not going around as an angry man today. The mere thought of such seems unbecoming to Our Lord Jesus. Now I would like to strongly caution us to think of Jesus "as if" He was angry today and understand this is a good thing for us unglorified humans to exercise.

Yes. I am struggling to fathom this as well...and partially drowning. God is wroth at the wicked. Jesus in human form even now is God. When He comes back to judge the wicked, it appears He also will exercise and exhibit wrath. And this will show up as an emotional state in the human form of our Lord (I assume). It makes my mind hurt and I'd love links to sermons or articles on how Christ reigns now in his human form.

 

[Finnsbane]

Very important presentation from Rev. Gavin Beers. He also points appropriately, I believe, to Sam Renihan's work on the same subject.


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[Reformed Covenanter]

Very important presentation from Rev. Gavin Beers. He also points appropriately, I believe, to Sam Renihan's work on the same subject.

I ordered the Sam Renihan book on the strength of his recommendation; it arrived through the mail today and looks good.

 

[Deleted member 6112]

I was able to finally listen to this over the week. It's the best thing I've heard on the subject.

Reformed Forum has had a couple of shows in Divine Impassibility which have also been helpful to me:
Divine Impassibility
God Without Passions

Apparently the ARBCA folks have done an excellent job working out the Confessional doctrine of Impassibility. Here is the fruit of their work:
Confessing the Impassible God: The Biblical, Classical, & Confessional Doctrine of Divine Impassibility

 

[earl40]

I was able to finally listen to this over the week. It's the best thing I've heard on the subject.

Reformed Forum has had a couple of shows in Divine Impassibility which have also been helpful to me:
Divine Impassibility

This is an excellent talk.

 

[brendanchatt]

This lecture was so good...