Great Church Sign
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Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Sometimes the truth is offensive.
Caroline
Puritan Board Sophomore
Sometimes the truth doesn't have to be as offensive as possible just for the sake of offending people. I see no point to this. I don't think it's like a Muslim is going to drive by and say, "Really? Oh, well, in that case, I'd better become a Christian!"
It's the equivalent of an immature kid writing, "Trixie is a *****!" on the bathroom wall. Even if it's true, it's just not appropriate.
It's the equivalent of an immature kid writing, "Trixie is a *****!" on the bathroom wall. Even if it's true, it's just not appropriate.
Quickened
Puritan Board Senior
Agreed. What is the goal or the expected outcome of the sign?
If you want to reach out and spread the gospel to people that are islamic that it great but it would be more of a benefit to use a charitable and loving tone as opposed to coming across as a bigot.
It didnt work too well for phelps and i dont think its going to work good in this situation.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
However, they might have something else wrong.
"Our Land needs strong churches that understand and fulfill God’s vision of restoration and reformation, churches that are able to handle the revival we will see this century with the apostolic anointing, and bring Godly changes to our entire society." (from their website)
This rings of New Apostolic Reformation
"Our Land needs strong churches that understand and fulfill God’s vision of restoration and reformation, churches that are able to handle the revival we will see this century with the apostolic anointing, and bring Godly changes to our entire society." (from their website)
This rings of New Apostolic Reformation
Caroline
Puritan Board Sophomore
Yes, they are affiliated with Rick Joyner (according to their site).
I suspected as much as soon as I saw it, because it just looks like something Pentecostals would do ... I haven't checked into exactly why the sign was posted (if it even says on the site), but I have no doubt that someone felt a 'leading from the Lord' about it. I'm sure it's supposed to start a big revival or something as they 'step out in faith'... *sigh* Silly Pentes.
I suspected as much as soon as I saw it, because it just looks like something Pentecostals would do ... I haven't checked into exactly why the sign was posted (if it even says on the site), but I have no doubt that someone felt a 'leading from the Lord' about it. I'm sure it's supposed to start a big revival or something as they 'step out in faith'... *sigh* Silly Pentes.
puritan lad
Puritan Board Freshman
I have no problem with the offensiveness of the sign. Truth should always over ride pragmatism. It there a better way to say it? Perhaps. But it needs to be said, especially in that community (with the apparent outcry).
As far as singling out Islam. I agree. Didn't someone say the same thing about New Covenant Judaism (John 8:39-44)?
As far as singling out Islam. I agree. Didn't someone say the same thing about New Covenant Judaism (John 8:39-44)?
Tripel
Puritan Board Senior
Why are you narrowing it down to just those options? What about charity, compassion, and love?
Does it really? Please explain. And why does it need to be said on church sign?
What if the sign said, "All you nonChristians are going to burn in hell." Does that need to be said too???
This is not a "great" church sign.
puritan lad
Puritan Board Freshman
Point well taken, though we are assuming that this message wasn't done out of love, as was Jesus message to the Judaists. I appreciate the strong line drawn in the sand, especially with the recent ecumenicism efforts of Rick Warren and others.
As far as it being on a sign, good point. I'm no big fan of "bumper sticker evangelism" myself. Better to proclaim it from the pulpit.
"All nonChristians are going to burn in hell"?? Well, that is the gospel, is it not?
As far as it being on a sign, good point. I'm no big fan of "bumper sticker evangelism" myself. Better to proclaim it from the pulpit.
"All nonChristians are going to burn in hell"?? Well, that is the gospel, is it not?
Sven
Puritan Board Sophomore
We really need to take our Lord's advice who said that we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, and Paul's advice who said that as much as it is possible for us to live at peace with all men. This sign, and much of bumpersticker evangelism, disregards the advice of both Paul and Christ.
Caroline
Puritan Board Sophomore
People who say this usually really mean that they feel that they should be able to say whatever they want whenever they want to say it and however they want to say it.
Look, there are a lot of things we could say that are true. But we should always speak the truth in love. Love is patient, love is kind ... Without love we are resounding gongs and clanging cymbals (I Cor. 13).
Church signs don't have to say everything just because it's true. Otherwise, I'd be looking for signs that say, "Our pastor is really boring when he talks politics!" or "Our church budget didn't work out as well as we had hoped!" or "Fran Jones is a gossip!"
There are times and places for saying things, even if they are true, and Christianity calls for restraint in speech so that we do not hurt other people to no purpose. Speaking truth should always be tempered with wisdom.
James 1:26: If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
PS What Sven said. We posted about the same time.
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
I think that is the need for the Gospel, but not at all the good news!
Southern Twang
Puritan Board Freshman
Though the tact and taste of the sign is questionable, the statement is still true. Islam is a very big problem for Christians. Not other religion is as hostile to the Gospel.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
Yep.
puritan lad
Puritan Board Freshman
I stand corrected. I guess I have an overreaction to some of the modern approaches to this issue, and found the straightforward truth of the sign quite refreshing.
But there are better ways of saying this, and the use of the sign is questionable at best.
But there are better ways of saying this, and the use of the sign is questionable at best.
Mark Hettler
Puritan Board Freshman
This post is about as offensive to Pentecostals as the original post would be to Muslims. For every Pentecostal who would advocate something like this sign, I could introduce you to 10 who would be offended by it. And for every Pentecostal pastor who would confirm someone's "leading of the Lord" in this direction, I could introduce you to 10 who would reject such a "leading" because it is out of accord with the character of Christ as revealed in scripture.
Idelette
Puritan Board Graduate
I agree! It's the gospel itself that is an offense and a stumbling block, but we are not to cause offense in other ways--for the very sake that the gospel might be proclaimed!
"Give no offense either to Jews or Greeks or the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of many, so that they may be saved." 1 Corin 10:32-33
Curt
Puritan Board Graduate
Actually, statism, is very hostile to the Gospel and Christians.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The reason for doing this (from their site)
"The Sign
Frequently asked questions
Tell us about the church, Dove World Outreach Center and about what the belief of the church is?
We are a New Testament, Charismatic, Non-Denominational Church that believes in the whole Bible and that we are to act in response to the word of God in order to change the times we are living in. Those times have gotten further and futher away from God; full of deception like abortion and same sex marriages.
Why would the Church put up such a sign?
To expose Islam for what it is. It is a violent and oppressive religion that is trying to mascarade itself as a religion of peace, seeking to deceive our society.
What is the reason or message the Church wants to get out with a sign such as that?
The message of the truth that there is only one way to God, only one way to salvation, and that is through the blood of Jesus. Through the repenting of your sins and being born again. It is time that all Christians unite, stop being passive and selfish and stand up and fight for the truth.
What is your response to those offended by the sign or the message of the sign?
The truth should never offend us. We should embrace the truth. That is the foundation of our country and that is the only way to true freedom. Islam is a lie based upon lies and deceptions and fear. In Muslim countries, if you preach the gospel or convert to Christianity - you will be killed. That is the type of religion it is."
I think they are guilty of something I sometimes do. They want to make a statement, but use too few words to make it properly. The viewed sign is an incomplete expression of the thoughts and facts behind it.
"The Sign
Frequently asked questions
Tell us about the church, Dove World Outreach Center and about what the belief of the church is?
We are a New Testament, Charismatic, Non-Denominational Church that believes in the whole Bible and that we are to act in response to the word of God in order to change the times we are living in. Those times have gotten further and futher away from God; full of deception like abortion and same sex marriages.
Why would the Church put up such a sign?
To expose Islam for what it is. It is a violent and oppressive religion that is trying to mascarade itself as a religion of peace, seeking to deceive our society.
What is the reason or message the Church wants to get out with a sign such as that?
The message of the truth that there is only one way to God, only one way to salvation, and that is through the blood of Jesus. Through the repenting of your sins and being born again. It is time that all Christians unite, stop being passive and selfish and stand up and fight for the truth.
What is your response to those offended by the sign or the message of the sign?
The truth should never offend us. We should embrace the truth. That is the foundation of our country and that is the only way to true freedom. Islam is a lie based upon lies and deceptions and fear. In Muslim countries, if you preach the gospel or convert to Christianity - you will be killed. That is the type of religion it is."
I think they are guilty of something I sometimes do. They want to make a statement, but use too few words to make it properly. The viewed sign is an incomplete expression of the thoughts and facts behind it.
The sign can be truth...but it really makes us Christians look bad. Other signs that come to mind that are similar to this are the God hate's (informal way of saying homosexuals).
These signs don't only make that specific church look bad, but Christianity as a whole. People just clump us all in one big group.
I think this hurts us, more than help us achieve anything.
These signs don't only make that specific church look bad, but Christianity as a whole. People just clump us all in one big group.
I think this hurts us, more than help us achieve anything.
Rogerant
Puritan Board Freshman
I agree. The Christian message in the New Covenenant is supposed to be what us christians are FOR (the Gospel)
Rather than what we are AGAINST (the law)
The popular evangelical message of the day is that we are against gay marriage and homosexuality. When the message of the chruch is supposed to be "ATONEMENT ACCOMPLISHED"!
Quickened
Puritan Board Senior
Well put pergs!
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
Actually, the Muslims I've debated appreciate it when you take a hard line and don't mamby pamgy around. If you are mamby pamby, then they conclude that your religion must be effeminate and worthless. The conversation always gets deeper when I tell them that their god is a devil and is unjust.
That said, the effeminacy of American culture would make it particularly offensive to non-Muslims.
Cheers,
Reformed Thomist
Puritan Board Sophomore
I always feel like writing "Analogically speaking" at the bottom of their signs. The last thing the church needs is more anthropomorphism!
Caroline
Puritan Board Sophomore
Well, the difference is that this is something that I post on an internet forum. lol. I wouldn't put 'Pentecostals are stupid' on a church sign, even though it's true (and yes, as a Pentecostal, I was very VERY stupid). But if you are looking for a retraction here, you won't get one. Not every Pentecostal may agree with this sign, but the theology of new revelation does make stupidity a lot more likely, because whatever someone dreams up in their heads can be a 'Word from God'. Hey, I'm glad it's only a sign. It's when autistic kids get suffocated to death by a pastor trying to cast out the 'spirit of autism' that I get really mad ...
christiana
Puritan Board Senior
I dont believe the best way to witness for what Christ has done, is doing and will do is by being nasty, critical and blaming about the beliefs we disagree with. If we diligently share Christ, the whole Truth of scripture and what it says we are doing what He asked. Even when Paul confronted the Corinthians he wasnt ugly about it but instructive, giving direction and correction so they would benefit, but not become hostile.
awretchsavedbygrace
Puritan Board Sophomore
You tell muslims that their "god is a devil"? I am dying to know what their remarks have been when you have said such a thing.... In all seriousness. Why would you say such a thing? What meaningful argument can come from telling them their "god is a devil"? What point are you trying to prove when you make such a statement?
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