Having a conversation with a non-calvinist....what would you say?

[Carl Copsey]

What would you say to this argument? This is a response that I received when voicing how God clearly chooses His people. Curious to what any of my brothers and sisters may say here:

"If that is the case, then where does the unpardonable sin come into play. Jesus himself said this. Every other sin is forgivable. What is the unpardonable sin? Rejecting the call of the holy spirit. Ok, if our calling is by God's irresistible grace, then how can we reject the spirit of God in the first place?

You do not understand. There are contradictions between God basing salvation on just his choice and sinners rejecting his calling. If it is based purely on irresistible grace, then why did Adam and Eve sin? If it is based on irresistible grace, then God chose to not bestow upon Adam and Eve, and thus, you are saying that God wanted them to sin.

Secondly, if it is based solely on God's election, then how do you explain scriptures such as 1 Timothy 2: 1-7? "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

Also, let us not forget about 2 Peter 3: 8-10. "8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." Do not think that I am trying to be rude or stern Carl. I just like to have a friendly discussion about the Word of God."[End quote]

 

[Free Christian]

Hi Carl. Just curious. What did you answer?

 

[Carl Copsey]

Hi Carl. Just curious. What did you answer?

Just in short, I explained it as Pastor John Samson had done in his two articles and quoted these articles. I think they are a very good source, easy to understand and a great reference to send others to. A great website in all.

Reformation Theology

Reformation Theology: Understanding 1 Timothy 2:4 by Pastor John Samson

Reformation Theology: Understanding 2 Peter 3:9 by Pastor John Samson

 

[Free Christian]

Hi again Carl. I read a good one on a site at Immanuel Protestant Reformed Church, Lacombe Alberta on irresistible grace. The article/writing had a lot of good scripture references to it.
Im not great at times explaining theological things myself and often point a person in the direction of those better able to, either books, websites or so on.
Many are called but few are chosen, is usually something I start with. God loves all his creatures but not all will be saved. The call goes out to all so that none are without excuse. And although God calls some with irresistible grace He does not leave those lost with "irresistible rejection" by Himself, their rejection of God is not something God Himself designed. So as I see it, we are all called, everyone, but of ourselves we all reject and fall short because of our own hearts and sinful inner beings. We are all called, all fail, but few are chosen.
Thank goodness for Gods Irresistible Grace.

 

[Free Christian]

Im hopeless at posting links Just put Irresistible Grace into the search function when/if you go to that link. Ill figure it out one day how to do it properly, the day computers like this are superseded probably.

 

[Edward]

What is the unpardonable sin? Rejecting the call of the holy spirit

No, it isn't. And since his basic proposition is faulty, his argument falls.

I'd respond with that and a suggestion that he spend some time reading scripture.

 

[KGP]

...how do you explain scriptures such as 1 Timothy 2: 1-7? "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL...

Is it all people head for head? Or all KINDS of people? Jews AND Gentiles, slave AND free, male AND female, rich AND poor, kings AND paupers? Clearly the latter, in my opinion. Christ redeems OUT of every tribe, tongue, people, nation, and it could likely be similarly asserted he redeems from every social status, every kind of vice, every lifestyle and subculture.

...let us not forget about 2 Peter 3: 8-10. "8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance...

Direct your friend to that word "YOU". That word you is referring to the church, those who have been called out. God is patient toward them, not willing for any of them to perish. There are others, just like those to whom this letter is addressed, whom are a part of the eternal covenant, ratified by Christ. They have not come into the fold yet. If you want to stick to the example in 2 Peter, they have not yet been brought into the ark of their salvation that will lift them above the judgment yet to come and bring them safely to the new world wherein righteousness dwells. Precisely for that reason judgment is being postponed, which gives the occasion for all God's people to be found and saved, and also gives occasion for the mocking that he mentions earlier.

This is an example of the kindness and patience of God that leads his chosen people to repentance, and the longsuffering of God with those who are not his people, nor of the fold of Christ. The patience of God either leads to salvation, or to hardening depending if a person is within the covenant of redemption, in which all things work out for their good, or if they are outside of the covenant.

Peter is talking to believers about those who are similarly included in the eternal covenant, but have not yet repented and come to Christ. He includes them all together, as they are all Christs sheep. God is patient toward YOU, ie, his covenant people, both lost (for now) and found, because he is not willing that a single one of them perish, but that each one of them reach repentance.

In short: The ANY and ALL of vs. 9 is referring to the YOU just prior. This is not an evangelistic letter to unbelievers. It is a letter to the redeemed, and God is not wishing that ANY of his church perish, but that ALL reach repentance, so that none shall be lost. Recall the words of Jesus: "This is the will of my Father, that of all he has given me, I lose none of them, but raise them up at the last day."

God isn't necessarily being patient with the mockers Peter mentions earlier. He ignores them for now, putting up with them for a time, and gladly, in order that he might draw to himself whom he set his heart upon before the foundation of the world, that they might enter into his eternal joy and share in his eternal life.

 

[GloriousBoaz]

Adam and Eve did not have a will that was in bondage, that was dead in trespasses and sin and could not respond. Like Lazarus we all need irresistible grace to make us alive again and once we are we won't reject God. Prior to regeneration and IG all we do is resist and reject God.

Also your friend seems to have a problem with God desiring the fall to occur, he needs to non~arbitrarily explain why that is theologically problematic. But the fact is Adam and Eve's will were not in bondage and they walked with God and His grace was readily available, to the fallen man the grace of God is all around him in common grace but he can't respond to it without special grace. He is equivocating a pre~fall anthropology and interaction with God's grace, with a post~fall condition of man and his ability to interact with God's grace.

I'd ask him to back that definition of the unpardonable sin up with scripture too. Even Spurgeon never claimed to know what it was. I believe the context is clearly about contributing miracles of God produced by the Holy Spirit to satan.

Basically he has thrown the Arminian "big 3" at you.

Penner gave a good solid exegesis of those passages (the third usually being mt. 23:37 which the arminian usually cites completely out of context to try to prove resistible grace, they completely misunderstand the nature of the fallen will. Along with the other two of the big 3 already mentioned in tim. and Peter.)

Here is a good article with videos: The Arminian Big Three (Matt 23:37, 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9) « The Objective Gospel

I'd suggest "The Potter's Freedom" by James White for further reading or even to suggest your friend reads it or do a book study with him.