chbrooking
Puritan Board Junior
In what sense are the heavenly things cleansed or purified? The contrast in the context is the earthly tabernacle and heaven itself. In what sense can heaven require purification or cleansing?
Hebrews 9:23
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This may be quite a lunatic suggestion, but if the earthly tabernacle was cleansed because it was to be the meeting place of God and man, and Christ has opened a way into the heavenly place, could it be that the rationale for heaven being cleansed is that now it will be the forum where man and God meet?
TeachingTulip
Puritan Board Sophomore
I should not assume to venture an answer, so I will just give you my "take!"
The earthly ordinances, being only copies of heavenly things, were tainted by sin, because the blood offerings were handled by corrupted and sinful priests.
Contrasted with the heavenly things, that are holy and totally separated and apart from sin, due to the fact that they were established and performed ("handled") solely by Christ as High Priest.
He alone, as a sinless Man and High Priest, offered ("handled") His precious blood to God, and manifested a "better sacrifice than these."
"For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24
"We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands." Mark 14:58
chbrooking
Puritan Board Junior
Ruben,
It's not a lunatic suggestion. As you look at the analogy between the earthly and the heavenly sanctuary, this is the natural sort of approach to take. But there are problems with it (In my humble opinion). Heaven is not in need of purification; we are. The earthly sanctuary was made with human (sinful) hands. But not heaven itself. And when we arrive there, we will no longer be tainted. Surely Christ is not completely formed in us yet while we are here. But when we get there, were we not fully transformed, we could not be in God's presence at all. The blood on the atonement cover sacramentally symbolized the purification that would need to take place. But the purification would be a purification of sinners. The blood interposed between God's presence above the ark and the symbol of our condemnation in the ark (the tablets). But that's the sign, the visually sermonic depiction of the gospel. While I don't have a better suggestion than the one you gave (that's why I started the thread), I don't think this solution works. It confuses what's "dirty" (sinners, not heaven). Thanks for trying. I'd love for you to give it more thought. I've generally found your comments to be very insightful.
-----Added 8/23/2009 at 07:40:52 EST-----
Ronda,
But the text of Hebrews 9:23 says that the heavenly realities had to be purified (and that dumb animals would not suffice for it). So, were it not for 9:23, I'd be right there with you. I'm just stuck because 9:23 seems to indicate that the heavenly realities (which, as you rightly recognize, are wholly holy and separate from sin) needed purification.
??? HELP !!! I'm confused.
It's not a lunatic suggestion. As you look at the analogy between the earthly and the heavenly sanctuary, this is the natural sort of approach to take. But there are problems with it (In my humble opinion). Heaven is not in need of purification; we are. The earthly sanctuary was made with human (sinful) hands. But not heaven itself. And when we arrive there, we will no longer be tainted. Surely Christ is not completely formed in us yet while we are here. But when we get there, were we not fully transformed, we could not be in God's presence at all. The blood on the atonement cover sacramentally symbolized the purification that would need to take place. But the purification would be a purification of sinners. The blood interposed between God's presence above the ark and the symbol of our condemnation in the ark (the tablets). But that's the sign, the visually sermonic depiction of the gospel. While I don't have a better suggestion than the one you gave (that's why I started the thread), I don't think this solution works. It confuses what's "dirty" (sinners, not heaven). Thanks for trying. I'd love for you to give it more thought. I've generally found your comments to be very insightful.
-----Added 8/23/2009 at 07:40:52 EST-----
Ronda,
But the text of Hebrews 9:23 says that the heavenly realities had to be purified (and that dumb animals would not suffice for it). So, were it not for 9:23, I'd be right there with you. I'm just stuck because 9:23 seems to indicate that the heavenly realities (which, as you rightly recognize, are wholly holy and separate from sin) needed purification.
??? HELP !!! I'm confused.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
Matthew Poole says:
"the tabernacles in all their parts, the book of the covenant, vessels, services, etc., being types, signs, examples, shadows of things in heaven, must be ceremonially purged and separated from common use to Divine, by those external, ritual sprinklings and lustrations, especially with beasts' blood, mystically representing better blood and purifications of persons and things than these."
Thus it would seem to suggest that he is referring not to things in heaven, but objects here used to perform religious rituals (or something along those lines); these things must be purified. This makes the most sense to me, as I can't get my head around the idea that heaven itself must be purified. It is perfect already - the presence of God is an adequate continual cleanser, no?
"the tabernacles in all their parts, the book of the covenant, vessels, services, etc., being types, signs, examples, shadows of things in heaven, must be ceremonially purged and separated from common use to Divine, by those external, ritual sprinklings and lustrations, especially with beasts' blood, mystically representing better blood and purifications of persons and things than these."
Thus it would seem to suggest that he is referring not to things in heaven, but objects here used to perform religious rituals (or something along those lines); these things must be purified. This makes the most sense to me, as I can't get my head around the idea that heaven itself must be purified. It is perfect already - the presence of God is an adequate continual cleanser, no?
Thanks for your kind remarks, Clark.
It seems like the dilemma is this: either heaven is cleansed without needing to be (because it isn't dirty) or somehow heaven has become contaminated. The undeniable fact is that the heavenly tabernacle is purified.
If we take the approach that the heavenly tabernacle has become contaminated we could point to such things as the fall of Satan, the presence there of Enoch and Elijah, and statements like Job 4:18 and 15:15, and perhaps also that all of the creation was made subject to bondage. Obviously this is to think of heaven as a "place", but I am not sure, given that Christ, Enoch, Elijah (and some would add Moses) are physically taking up space somewhere.
The other approach would be to suggest that something could be purified in a figurative sense, without there being a necessary presupposition of contamination. Is there any warrant for thinking that purified by sacrifice could refer merely to being set apart rather than to being cleansed?
Both those explanations seem a little convoluted, and it seems that the true explanation is often something simple: hopefully someone knows the answer!
It seems like the dilemma is this: either heaven is cleansed without needing to be (because it isn't dirty) or somehow heaven has become contaminated. The undeniable fact is that the heavenly tabernacle is purified.
If we take the approach that the heavenly tabernacle has become contaminated we could point to such things as the fall of Satan, the presence there of Enoch and Elijah, and statements like Job 4:18 and 15:15, and perhaps also that all of the creation was made subject to bondage. Obviously this is to think of heaven as a "place", but I am not sure, given that Christ, Enoch, Elijah (and some would add Moses) are physically taking up space somewhere.
The other approach would be to suggest that something could be purified in a figurative sense, without there being a necessary presupposition of contamination. Is there any warrant for thinking that purified by sacrifice could refer merely to being set apart rather than to being cleansed?
Both those explanations seem a little convoluted, and it seems that the true explanation is often something simple: hopefully someone knows the answer!
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. (Heb.9:23, ESV)
What about the fact that Christ and His people fulfill the typology of the Old Covenant Tabernacle and Temple?
What about the fact that Christ's sacrifice, sealed the cleansing which the Old Testament saints in Heaven had already as a down payment before it was actually achieved? Christ's blood as well as justifying us at conversion, sanctifies us, and perfects us at the moment we die and enter Heaven. (?)
What about the fact that Christ and His people fulfill the typology of the Old Covenant Tabernacle and Temple?
What about the fact that Christ's sacrifice, sealed the cleansing which the Old Testament saints in Heaven had already as a down payment before it was actually achieved? Christ's blood as well as justifying us at conversion, sanctifies us, and perfects us at the moment we die and enter Heaven. (?)
TeachingTulip
Puritan Board Sophomore
Yes, so might not the more pertinent question be, what are the "heavenly realities?"
What "realities" are being assumed into the heavenly realm, by the Priesthood of Jesus Christ?
Might it be the "heavenly realities" are a result of Godly grace, which prove to be the reconciliation between God and man.
For example: I Corinthians 15:50.
(I am just asking!)
Another thing to consider. Jesus Christ said He had to endure a "baptism," (Luke 12:50) (which spoke of His necessary sufferings on the cross . . .substitutionally suffered to purify the elect He represented, from their sins . . .making them fit to inherit heaven.)
How do these purified, cleansed, and changed souls count amongst "heavenly things?" Or might the great multitude, bringing honor and glory to the Lamb, actually consitute the "heavenly things?"
I would like to interpret "heavenly realities" as being the final and eternal result of sinners being reconciled with God, through the vicarious cleansing baptism of death suffered by Jesus Christ, which necessarily provides the sons of God access to the heavenly realm.
But of course, I know that how I would like to interpret Scripture, must line up with all the teachings of Scripture . . .so I am just throwing thoughts out here, for what they are worth.
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