Help me with this question

[Edm]

This is from another forum. I am in over my head. I also do not like to quit. The theme seemed to be that one is saved by works and faith alone is wrong. I know we are saved by Grace through Faith. I did misspeak.
"Originally Posted By KD5TXX:
I'll bite. Faith only is enough. What if I have faith, and die that minute I am saved. Will I go to heaven? I did no works, died to fast. That is why faith is enough. That said....if you truly have faith, you will do the works. It is impossible not to. What Jesus did was enough. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. If you have faith and are saved, this will be visible by your actions. So yes faith is enough."

That was my reply to another's post.

This is the reply I received:
No, it's not. Also, I see in your post a pattern that I've seen repeated countless times. You have chosen to rely on a "what if" question and have made absolutely no mention of what God actually teaches in His inspired word, the Bible.

Read Hebrews 11 and show me where it says of any of the patriarchs, "By faith So-and-So did no works, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Next, read James 2, come back here, and post what the scripture there says about "faith only".

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard James 2 preached? In teaching a number of people who grew up being taught the doctrine you're defending here, I have found that everybody--and I mean that very literally--that I taught about passages like Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-11, James 2, 1 Peter 3:21, etc. had never been taught those verses. They had never, ever heard them in years of teaching at their churches. They had no idea that they even existed in the Bible. It's very interesting and disturbing to me that people who claim to be shepherds simply omit a pretty sizable amount of scripture so that their flock will never question the doctrines they teach.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Let's see if we can clear some things up here. I would advise you read Ephesians 2:8-10 and Titus Chapter 3. We are discussing the doctrine of Justification I believe. Salvation is more than Justification. It also encompasses Sanctification and Glorification. It stems from our Union with Christ. But I might be complicating the topic at hand. Let's read Titus 3.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus CHAPTER 3.

1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. 12 When I shall send Artemas unto thee, or Tychicus, be diligent to come unto me to Nicopolis: for I have determined there to winter. 13 Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them. 14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.


Good works are necessary. But when it comes to Justification or having a reconciled relationship with God there is nothing we could do to deserve it. It would require such a level of holiness that no one could possibly achieve it. Only one person is capable of doing such because he is equal to and with God. Ontologically it is impossible for man to achieve what Christ did as Mediator. That is because man is just a creature and Christ was God manifest in the flesh.


Jesus noted if we wanted to do the works of God we needed to do what?
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Another place that may be helpful would be the Westminster Confession of Faith. It shows the relationship in a biblically concise manner the relationship between works and salvation.

CHAPTER 11
Of Justification1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
2. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.3. Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to his Father's justice in their behalf. Yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them; and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead; and both, freely, not for anything in them; their justification is only of free grace; that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.4. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and, although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.6. The justification of believers under the old testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the new testament.


CHAPTER 13
Of Sanctification1. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
2. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.3. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

CHAPTER 14
Of Saving Faith1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word, by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.
2. By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God himself speaking therein; and acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come. But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.3. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong; may be often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory: growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.

CHAPTER 15
Of Repentance unto Life1. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace, the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.
2. By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.3. Although repentance be not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof, which is the act of God's free grace in Christ; yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.4. As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation; so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.5. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly.6. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof; upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy;so, he that scandalizeth his brother, or the church of Christ, ought to be willing, by a private or public confession, and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to those that are offended, who are thereupon to be reconciled to him, and in love to receive him.

CHAPTER 16
Of Good Works1. Good works are only such as God hath commanded in his holy Word, and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretense of good intention.
2. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith: and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.3. Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ. And that they may be enabled thereunto, beside the graces they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will, and to do, of his good pleasure: yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.4. They who, in their obedience, attain to the greatest height which is possible in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.5. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin, or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come; and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom, by them, we can neither profit, nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins, but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants: and because, as they are good, they proceed from his Spirit; and as they are wrought by us, they are defiled, and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God's judgment.6. Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreprovable in God's sight; but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.7. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands; and of good use both to themselves and others: yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God: and yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God.

There are scripture references for the Westminster Confession. You can view them and the whole confession on the board. It has been very helpful to me when sorting these things out.

Westminster Confession of Faith - The PuritanBoard

BTW, yes I have heard all of those passages preached on you are saying that others didn't even know existed. It isn't the Reformed Church that isn't afraid to preach on those texts. I know many who have and who believe they are God's word. Without them the biblical doctrine of salvation as a whole would be incomplete. Even the thief on the cross defended the Lord's righteousness. But it was his faith which was given to him by grace that justified him. Not any work he did. Works do make our faith just and right. They prove our faith whether it be true or false. But they don't make us fit for heaven.

 

[Edm]

I readily admit that my words don't flow like it should. I realize that that is not WHY faith is enough...to be clear, my post ended with faith is enough. The next part is his response.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Was I helpful in any way? I guess I may not be comprehending what the purpose of your post might be.

 

[Edm]

Yes that is helpful. I have a problem in that I am TO eager to debate those things that I hold true. I firmly believe in the WCF and the Bible. I am also very much immature in my learning. I am convicted every time in read Gods word and right now in my life I feel as if I am drinking from a firehouse. I seem to jump the gun in replies because I am eager to share Gods word. Then people throw things at me, which I do not believe, but which others have refuted for centuries and I am lost in how to reply. I on one hand don't want to argue, but on the oter hand don't want to just drop it and be perceived as admitting I am wrong, for fear that others may be tempted to believe what I did not reply to. In another post this person is insisting that we are saved through baptisism. He quoted verses he claimed backed this up. This seems to be a very catholic man whom despises the reformation.

 

[Hamalas]

Walk before you run, and head James words about not being too eager to be a teacher. At this point it might best serve you and those around for you to step back from seeking to debate, instruct, or teach and simply to drink in the riches of God's Word.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Either he is Roman Catholic or what they would call a Campbellite from the supposed Restoration Movement. Alexander Campbell was a Minister gone amuck like Charles Finney. You can learn about the movement by searching Stone-Campbell movement. But I wouldn't waist a lot of my time with it. It is good to know how to refute the teachings. There are a lot of good resources to help with that. You might look on sites like Monergism.com or CARM or do a search on the Puritanboard.

 

[Edward]

Are you posting from a phone or tablet? PB has good formatting tools which might make your original post easier to comprehend. Even textual clues and quotation marks might help.

to be clear, my post ended with faith is enough. The next part is his response.

 

[Edm]

Yes this is from a tablet. I could not figure out how to highlight to differentiate the text for me vs him. I have tried to make it more clear.

Ben,
You are correct. That is a fault of mine. My wife will gladly tell you that I have a problem with jumping into the water head first without first checking the depth of the pool. I agree with her. I know I need to restrain myself. Because I have a problem with that, more than once I see myself " bringing a knife to a gunfight". Thank you all for your replies.