Help with predestination

[fralo4truth]

Hi friends,

I need help with the subject of predestination. I will be addressing a congregation who were absolutely ingrained with the notion that God had not predestinated all that comes to pass. They were taught this their whole lives! The objections were the expected ones: that it would make God to be the author of sin, and render man unaccountable for his actions. Now these objections are superficial, I know, but I must nevertheless address them. It's hard to put new wine into old bottles. So I need to be able to do this with the greatest care. I will need to go slowly and present it in simplicity.

What are some of the best scriptures I might use? Do you know of any great quotes, or works on this subject? And also, just general advice on how to proceed with this subject.

Thanks so much for your help.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

Here is a brief little paper that might help.



The Goodness of God and the Guilt of Man

A brief contemplation on sin, salvation, and the sovereignty of God



Part One: Sin

The nature and origin of sin must first be understood if one is to properly consider the broader topic of the sovereignty of God. Paul makes it clear in Romans chapter 5 that sin entered the world through Adam, and death along with it. Man therefore has inherited the curse of Adam, which is first manifested in sin, and then ultimately in death.
In this sense, man is incapable of abstaining from sin. Carnality and hatred dominate the thoughts of men, and these thoughts inevitably manifest themselves into actions. It is important to understand that these thoughts, in and of themselves, are sinful independent of any action. Jesus made this point quite clearly in the Sermon on the Mount. Ultimately, the law is about love. Love for God, and love for others. If the law is understood in this light, it is clear that abstaining from the action of sin in no way satisfies the requirements of the law because evil comes from within. It is this darkness of heart and mind that man has inherited from Adam and which keeps man fatally disinclined to God.
Some would argue that this renders man blameless in the commission of sin because of his clearly helpless state in the face of inherited tendencies. This cannot be considered as valid because man clearly possesses the capacity to sin independent of this nature. If this were not so, how then could Adam and Eve have sinned? It cannot be said that Adam was born with a sin nature, and yet he sinned.
The sin nature that man now possesses manifests itself in the evil thoughts and desires that consume him. While man has little power to subdue the evil in his mind, man has complete control over the actions of his body. Man therefore thinks evil involuntarily, but commits evil voluntarily. In this sense, man is guilty because of his sin nature, but would be equally guilty without a sin nature. The reality of this may seem hopelessly circular, possessing neither a beginning nor end. It is for this precise reason that the cross was necessary, to break the endless cycle of sin and death that neither the law nor the will of man had the power to stop.

Part Two: Free Will

Does man then have free will? The answer to this is both yes and no. Man certainly possesses a measure of free will in that he is free to choose the actions of his body. However, the measure of freedom that man does possess is at best superficial. God promised Abraham a son in his old age, but Abraham grew impatient with God and attempted to provide himself a son by his own doing. All of these efforts on the part of Abraham were disastrous acts of free will. The fact that God did eventually provide Abraham a son in due time illustrates the fact that the acts of man in no way interfere with the ultimate will of God. When Paul speaks of God “working” all things together in Romans 8, this is precisely what he is alluding to, God does His will in spite of the sinful and counterproductive actions of man.
In the same way, man is not truly free in matters of sin and salvation. While it is certainly true that man sins volitionally, each sin that man commits creates another link in a chain that binds man to the power of sin. In this sense, as man goes deeper and deeper into sin, his power to resist sin grows exponentially weaker until sin ceases to be a true choice. Only the Grace of God can break this chain, but man is equally powerless in achieving salvation. While some would argue that salvation is predicated upon the choice of man, a true understanding of sin and free will can lead to only one conclusion; man would never choose God on his own. To understand this, we must consider that man does have the power not to sin, and yet all men do sin. In the same way, men would never choose God on their own, salvation is completely the result of the goodness and grace of God.

Part Three: The Sovereignty of God

God is clearly sovereign. To believe otherwise is to render God as being like man, capable of error and lacking omniscience. God created the world and all that is contained therein. The very breath that man takes is owed to the power and glory of an all-powerful God. God clearly works all things for His ultimate purpose and the actions of man serve only to complicate the lives of man and never the will of God.
In His sovereignty, God has seen fit to allow man a measure of free will. Clearly, God foreknew that this free will would lead to the fall of man, and yet God allowed it for His ultimate glory, which would be manifested in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Man was created and placed in a garden in the very presence of God, and through his own actions was expelled from the garden, and from the presence of God, and left to a life filled with sorrow and ultimately ending in death. It is hard to imagine that this could possibly be the will of God, and yet God clearly allowed it to happen. This should not be construed to imply that God was the author of the sin that led to the fall, but rather that He allowed it to happen for His ultimate purpose and glory. Christ speaks often in the Gospels of His death bringing glory to the Father, and clearly this is true. How much more glorious is it to consider a God who would sacrifice His own son for the salvation of a sinful people rather than one who simply created a race of mindless automatons who could do nothing other than obey?
The illustration of Abraham and his quest for a son is a microcosm of the overall condition of mankind. The sinful actions of man serve only to bring misery and suffering, but they never thwart or confound the ultimate will of God. In this way, God is completely sovereign, not in the sense that He controls every minute detail of the lives of men, but in the sense that all men are ultimately performing the will of God in spite of any measure of free will they may possess.

 

[jwithnell]

I have been blessed with solid reformed teaching for years, but still get surprised with things that I understood differently. It is bearable for three reasons that I think you might be able to employ:

1. I have been taught a great love for the truth that scripture reveals and the need for me to submit to it.
2. I implicitly trust my pastor, so am willing to set aside my assumptions and reexamine whether or not what I'm hearing squares with the scriptures.
3. Week by week we hear expository preaching through the scriptures so I know the full counsel of God's word is being taught -- there's no skipping the more difficult topics and I never suspect a text has been chosen just to prove a point.

The last might be the most important in your case.

 

[nicnap]

And also, just general advice on how to proceed with this subject.

With humility and love; with no sense of being ruffled. It is the grace of God that will convince and compel these people, not your exegetical prowess and oratory capacity. You have it down already; you said go slowly and with great care and simplicity. I have been where you are and did not exercise the greatest pastoral care (no excuse, but I was young and immature and newly Reformed) ... I cared more about proving I was right than I did about loving the people that God put before me. Be a shepherd.

 

[seajayrice]

Free Loraine Boettner download posted in a recent thread. I just began reading the article, looks excellent.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f29/reformed-doctrine-predestination-loraine-boettner-59795/

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/boettner/boettner_reformedfaith.html

As another poster commented, rest in the power of God.

 

[LeeD]

I think a careful, slow and gentle walk through Romans 8 and 9 would be a great place to start.

 

[torstar]

Hi friends,

I need help with the subject of predestination. I will be addressing a congregation who were absolutely ingrained with the notion that God had not predestinated all that comes to pass. They were taught this their whole lives! The objections were the expected ones: that it would make God to be the author of sin, and render man unaccountable for his actions. Now these objections are superficial, I know, but I must nevertheless address them. It's hard to put new wine into old bottles. So I need to be able to do this with the greatest care. I will need to go slowly and present it in simplicity.

What are some of the best scriptures I might use? Do you know of any great quotes, or works on this subject? And also, just general advice on how to proceed with this subject.

Thanks so much for your help.

Make sure you keep an eye on the closest EXIT for you, just in case.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Hi friends,

I need help with the subject of predestination. I will be addressing a congregation who were absolutely ingrained with the notion that God had not predestinated all that comes to pass. They were taught this their whole lives! The objections were the expected ones: that it would make God to be the author of sin, and render man unaccountable for his actions. Now these objections are superficial, I know, but I must nevertheless address them. It's hard to put new wine into old bottles. So I need to be able to do this with the greatest care. I will need to go slowly and present it in simplicity.

What are some of the best scriptures I might use? Do you know of any great quotes, or works on this subject? And also, just general advice on how to proceed with this subject.

Thanks so much for your help.

Here are a couple of pieces I put together on this very subject. They are dripping with scripture:

Judging God « Osage Bluestem

Why is there Evil? « Osage Bluestem

I hope you find something useful in them.

 

[Jack K]

I have been where you are and did not exercise the greatest pastoral care (no excuse, but I was young and immature and newly Reformed) ... I cared more about proving I was right than I did about loving the people that God put before me. Be a shepherd.

Yes, yes, yes. I would guess this is absolutely the most important thing you need to remember.

 

[Gage Browning]

My thoughts are start with Ephesians 1. I was absolutely shocked that the word "predestined" was used in the text, and I would venture to say that those raised in the Arminian tradition might be shocked as well. At least start with the word itself.

 

[fralo4truth]

My thoughts are start with Ephesians 1. I was absolutely shocked that the word "predestined" was used in the text, and I would venture to say that those raised in the Arminian tradition might be shocked as well. At least start with the word itself.

I perhaps should clarify that they are not totally oblivious to the subject or deniers of it, so something that elementary would not be necessary. They believe in predestination but only as it relates to the end of salvation. In other words, they believe that God predestinated people to be saved or conformed to Christ's image, but nothing else. Any regulation which God exerts over the affairs of the world, they would simply say that God intervened. They make strict distinction betweent the terms foreordain, decree, providence, and predestination.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

My thoughts are start with Ephesians 1. I was absolutely shocked that the word "predestined" was used in the text, and I would venture to say that those raised in the Arminian tradition might be shocked as well. At least start with the word itself.

I perhaps should clarify that they are not totally oblivious to the subject or deniers of it, so something that elementary would not be necessary. They believe in predestination but only as it relates to the end of salvation. In other words, they believe that God predestinated people to be saved or conformed to Christ's image, but nothing else. Any regulation which God exerts over the affairs of the world, they would simply say that God intervened. They make strict distinction betweent the terms foreordain, decree, providence, and predestination.

I do not understand how one could believe God predestined people to be conformed to the image of Christ but did not predestine who would be conformed to the image of Christ.

That idea doesn't make any sense.

 

[Gage Browning]

I perhaps should clarify that they are not totally oblivious to the subject or deniers of it, so something that elementary would not be necessary. They believe in predestination but only as it relates to the end of salvation. In other words, they believe that God predestinated people to be saved or conformed to Christ's image, but nothing else. Any regulation which God exerts over the affairs of the world, they would simply say that God intervened. They make strict distinction betweent the terms foreordain, decree, providence, and predestination.

That's a good clarification but also a little more confusing for me. I too echo Dave's thoughts, that God is in charge of regenerating, justifying, and ultimately glorifying me, "but nothing else" seems odd to me. Not saying anyting else other than if God is in charge of the Big categories of my life, but not the little ones, then that is a little more akin to what Michael Horton calls, "therapeutic deism". However, I understand a little more what you want to try to teach them, but I would say that a good course in the attributes of God by Pink would be a good start. If not the right setting for a book like that then maybe a good dose of Genesis is a good start. Like God intervening in the life of Joseph for instance, as well as the lives of brother's and starving egyptians for instance. Just a thought.

 

[MW]

What are some of the best scriptures I might use?

I have found it very useful to begin at the cross. It is a subject dear to the heart of every saint. In Acts 2:23 and 4:28 there are very clear references to the actions of wicked men being under the ordaining purpose of God. By beginning here one is basically asking a believer to explicitly affirm what is already implied in his faith concerning the death of Jesus. From there it is good to show from Acts 13:48 that those who were ordained to life were the ones who believed the message of the cross. This would then open a door to the predestinarian passages in the epistles.

 

[fralo4truth]

My thoughts are start with Ephesians 1. I was absolutely shocked that the word "predestined" was used in the text, and I would venture to say that those raised in the Arminian tradition might be shocked as well. At least start with the word itself.

I perhaps should clarify that they are not totally oblivious to the subject or deniers of it, so something that elementary would not be necessary. They believe in predestination but only as it relates to the end of salvation. In other words, they believe that God predestinated people to be saved or conformed to Christ's image, but nothing else. Any regulation which God exerts over the affairs of the world, they would simply say that God intervened. They make strict distinction betweent the terms foreordain, decree, providence, and predestination.

I do not understand how one could believe God predestined people to be conformed to the image of Christ but did not predestine who would be conformed to the image of Christ.

That idea doesn't make any sense.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. They do believe that God predestinated his elect to be conformed. I used the term 'people' which perhaps is too generic. They would believe that God predestinated them to be conformed to Christ's image, but just this singular event.

They forget that all the things that happen to the elect are PART of this conforming, and that they too happen out of divine necessity.

 

[MMasztal]

Hi friends,

I need help with the subject of predestination. I will be addressing a congregation who were absolutely ingrained with the notion that God had not predestinated all that comes to pass. They were taught this their whole lives! The objections were the expected ones: that it would make God to be the author of sin, and render man unaccountable for his actions. Now these objections are superficial, I know, but I must nevertheless address them. It's hard to put new wine into old bottles. So I need to be able to do this with the greatest care. I will need to go slowly and present it in simplicity.

What are some of the best scriptures I might use? Do you know of any great quotes, or works on this subject? And also, just general advice on how to proceed with this subject.

Thanks so much for your help.

Hi Kevin:

You’re a Reformed Pastor in Pensacola? That’s a tough town for anyone reformed.

BTW, you got some good advice so far.

 

[Curt]

I never suspect a text has been chosen just to prove a point.

But, it's interesting how often the Holy Spirit chooses texts just to prove a point - even when we're preaching through a book and (thought WE) had scheduled that passage for that week months ago.

 

[athanatos]

Just to prove a point? Romans 9:16 was exactly that kind of passage for me. That verse in Scripture was staring at me, convicting me, charging me, offending me, ... reshaping and reorienting me --> and it was the tipping point for accepting Unconditional Election.