Holidays

[puriteen18]

Yeah, here we are talking about holidays again. Sorry if this topic has been overdone in past threads, but I am in a rather confusing situation.

Okay, we celebrate Lord's Days (of couse), Reformation Day, and most of us Thanksgiving.

We don't celebrate Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, Maunde Thursday, Holy Monday or Saturday, Trinity or Palm Sunday, All-You-Can-Eat Chinese Buffet Tuesday.(A little humor....very little!)

When asked by someone not Reformed the question is ,"Why do you not celebrate Christmas?"

Answer, "Because it is not in the Bible and was made up by the Roman Church."

Next question, "Well, is Reformation Day in the Bible? or did your Church make it up?"

See my problem.

Any advice?

 

[Puritan Sailor]

I celebrate both Christmas and Reformation Day The key here guys is that these are voluntary. These days are not required in Scripture but are not forbidden either. And since these are not days of worship they don't fall under the regulative principle of worship. They are "free will" offerings. It's not wrong to celebrate Christ's birth or the Reformation, but it is wrong to impose such celebration on another's conscience without any biblical warrant. Hope this helps.

Patrick

 

[fredtgreco]

Celebrating Christmas or any other holiday is absolutely permissible, provided that it is not drawn into the church. By that, I do not mean that you can't mention Christmas in church, but that the Church may not make a Christmas eve service a stated worship service.

 

[ChristianasJourney]

While celebrating Christmas may seem questionable... Celebrating the Resurrection (Easter) in my opinion is one of the most important holidays for Christians to celebrate. After all, is that not the reason for us being Christians--the resurrection of Christ? Isn't that why we are set apart from the other religions? Yes, we do, in a way, celebrate it every Sunday, but that's not quite the same thing. And unlike Christ's birth, we have a pretty good idea the season that His resurrection took place.

[Edited on 10-30-2003 by ChristianasJourney]

 

[pastorway]

Reformation Day and.......

I enjoy celebrating Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Years Eve/Day, Valentines Day, Memorial Day, St Patricks Day, Veterans Day, Birthdays, Good Friday, Easter ( I prefer term Resurrection Sunday), Fourth of July, Labor Day, and just about any other holiday (except Halloween).

:biggrin:

[Edited on 10-30-03 by pastorway]

 

[jfschultz]

[quote:0383aa0069][i:0383aa0069]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:0383aa0069]
While celebrating Christmas may seem questionable... Celebrating the Resurrection (Easter) in my opinion is one of the most important holidays for Christians to celebrate. After all, is that not the reason for us being Christians--the resurrection of Christ? Isn't that why we are set apart from the other religions? Yes, we do, in a way, celebrate it every Sunday, but that's not quite the same thing. And unlike Christ's birth, we have a pretty good idea the season that His resurrection took place.[/quote:0383aa0069]

Notice the Biblical difference here. With its relationship to passover the Bible declares when Christ died and rose. There is not such a clear indication of when Christ was born other than who ruled where, which covers years, the date is set by tradition of men.

 

[kceaster]

Last year, we tried something new. We celebrated Christ's birth by the season of the advent and reflected on God's condescension and grace. But we did not exchange gifts within our family.

Instead of Christmas and because we have two boys who like to get presents, we inaugurated New Year's day as the day we will give gifts to each other. It commemorates the grace God has shown us the previous year and looks forward to what God is going to do in the year to come, should He give us His grace.

I think we're going to call it grace day.

As for your dilemma, Puriteen, God established one lasting ordinance for the celebration of days and He did that at creation. Our one day in seven, is the only day, as a church, God has made for us as a holy day.

All the rest our our holidays are man made and there is nothing wrong with them, so long as, as Fred said, they do not get dragged into the church to be sanctified or whatever.

We celebrate the seasons of the birth, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension as a church. We also celebrate Reformation Day. But in all of these, the focus is not on superstition or upon our pleasure or leisure. The focus is on God's great grace and mercy for us.

And, as Patrick has said, these are not mandatory. But I think they should be received with joy and celebration.

In Christ,

KC

P.S. Phillip, what is wrong with Easter(day)?

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

I'm with Phillip, I love the holidays, provided we follow Fred's advice of not allowing them into the church. Take Christ out of Christmas and I love it - Fictional Santa, Elves, flying reindeer, mistle toe, chesnuts roasting over an open fire and Andy Williams singing "Winter Wonderland" - I love all those Christmas treats!

 

[Guest]

I celebrate them ALL with my church, and I really do not care what any of you think about it.

I think it is one of the silliest issues I have seen argued on this board . . . .

Right up there with the threads about not smoking tobacco.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

[quote:d3391ca3a0][i:d3391ca3a0]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:d3391ca3a0]
I'm with Phillip, I love the holidays, provided we follow Fred's advice of not allowing them into the church. Take Christ out of Christmas and I love it - Fictional Santa, Elves, flying reindeer, mistle toe, chesnuts roasting over an open fire and Andy Williams singing "Winter Wonderland" - I love all those Christmas treats! [/quote:d3391ca3a0]

I go the exact opposite We've kicked out Santa and his crew. Only Christ is worth celebrating.

 

[wsw201]

[quote:9da7007559]
We don't celebrate Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, Maunde Thursday, Holy Monday or Saturday, Trinity or Palm Sunday, All-You-Can-Eat Chinese Buffet Tuesday.(A little humor....very little!)
[/quote:9da7007559]

Our Church has a Maunde Thursday service along with a Tenebrae (Good Friday) Service.

 

[puriteen18]

Thanks guys! I feel relieved that I can celebrate Christmas again.

It's hard enough being the only Calvinist in the family.

I think I'll have to go the way of Puritan Sailor and leave out the worldly aspect.

Thanks again.

 

[SolaScriptura]

[quote:11d0f51d9a][i:11d0f51d9a]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:11d0f51d9a]
I'm with Phillip, I love the holidays, provided we follow Fred's advice of not allowing them into the church. Take Christ out of Christmas and I love it - Fictional Santa, Elves, flying reindeer, mistle toe, chesnuts roasting over an open fire and Andy Williams singing "Winter Wonderland" - I love all those Christmas treats! [/quote:11d0f51d9a]

Yes! And what would Christmas be without Bing singing "I'll be home for Christmas" or "White Christmas?" I also enjoy "It's a Wonderful Life." Great movie!

 

[Len]

Weird Al? You couldn't get me to listen to him if you offered me all the spatulas and jellybean and pickle sandwiches in the world!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Yeah, I can still remember my FIRST Wierd Al song... "Christmas At Ground Zero!" That was also one of the first music videos I ever saw. One of my favorites of his is the video for "Fat" (his remake of Michael Jackson's "Bad&quot.

 

[shelly]

[quote:dab41742ca]
the Church may not make a Christmas eve service a stated worship service.
[/quote:dab41742ca]

Why not? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't understand it. I thought that was strictly a Gothard thing along with some wacked out cults. I'm just saying it as I have seen it my whole life. I didn't marry a Gothard guy and the whole anti-Christmas thing was a big part of it; plus my dad hated him.

I'm sure someone will say there has been many long drawn out discussions of this topic and that I need to go look it up. So, I'm going, I'm going...:tongue:

But...if no one is currently discussing; then I'll be back and you won't be able to get rid of me:tongue:.

shelly

 

[ChristianasJourney]

I'm pretty familiar with Gothard, and despite some philosphical and theological differences, I still like him....I didn't know he was against Christmas.

Actually, I don't think that it's particularly unusual for Christians to have a problem with Christmas... Many of the traditions surrounding Christmas are steeped in German, English, and Irish pagan worship ceramonies. The date itself, the 25th of December, was designated because it was the time of the winter solstice festival--not the day of Christ's birth.

It's also my understanding that many of the early puritans that settled this country did not celebrate Christmas because of its pagan origins (I seem to recall it being outlawed, but I'd have to look it up).

With that said, I'm merely posting this as info...not to encourage or discourage the celebration of Christmas. I do find it to be a good time to think about the birth of Christ, something that might not be done often without the reminder...I personally have mixed thoughts about what to do with the day, and therefore will celebrate it, or not celebrate it, to different degrees in any given year. Up to this point I have taken the wishy-washy road of "whether you eat or drink or whatsoever you do, do as unto the Lord," and "let no man judge you whether you keep new moons, or sabbath days...," etc. But I don't do Christmas trees, greenery, santa, reindeer, etc. I do do mangers, gifts, and turkey dinners.



[Edited on 11-4-2003 by ChristianasJourney]

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:d064f35194][i:d064f35194]Originally posted by shelly[/i:d064f35194]
[quote:d064f35194]
the Church may not make a Christmas eve service a stated worship service.
[/quote:d064f35194]

Why not? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't understand it. I thought that was strictly a Gothard thing along with some wacked out cults. I'm just saying it as I have seen it my whole life. I didn't marry a Gothard guy and the whole anti-Christmas thing was a big part of it; plus my dad hated him.

I'm sure someone will say there has been many long drawn out discussions of this topic and that I need to go look it up. So, I'm going, I'm going...:tongue:

But...if no one is currently discussing; then I'll be back and you won't be able to get rid of me:tongue:.

shelly [/quote:d064f35194]

Shelly,

This is the historically reformed position. You may take a look at some resources at:

http://www.reformed.com/pub/xmas.htm
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/ChristmasSermon.htm
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/miller1825.htm
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/miller_on_holy_days.htm
G.I. Williamson's article
John MacArthur's article
A.W. Pink on Christmas
George Gillespie (Scottish divine at Westminster Assembly) on Holy Days

The sum of the argument runs thus: God has only ordained one the Sabbath as the day of worship, and man may not be bound to man-devised worship. When the Church calls a stated worship service, it is the duty of the members to attend. Therefore to call a worship service on Christmas eve, in violation of the RPW is to impermissibly bind the conscience.

Note that the issue here from a classical reformed perspective (this was Calvin's view, Knox's view, the puritans' view, the Southern Presbyterians' view and the Princetonians' view) is with Christmas and the Church, not the private celebration of Christmas. Thus I, for example, have nothing against Christmas carols, parties, etc. Christmas celebrate all you want (and I with you), but don't replace the God given day with a man-made one.

The irony here is that many who refuse to worship on the Lord's Day, or who would not be caught dead at the evening service, have a caniption if you suggest that there might not be a Christmas eve candlelight service. You would think you had just suggested that the Bible is false. :flaming:

 

[JohnV]

[quote:94773d762d][i:94773d762d]posted by Fred Greco[/i:94773d762d]
Note that the issue here from a classical reformed perspective (this was Calvin's view, Knox's view, the puritans' view, the Southern Presbyterians' view and the Princetonians' view) is with Christmas and the Church, not the private celebration of Christmas. Thus I, for example, have nothing against Christmas carols, parties, etc. Christmas celebrate all you want (and I with you), but don't replace the God given day with a man-made one. [/quote:94773d762d]
But it was not the view of the Reformed church I grew up in. We had seven "extra services" a year. I grew up thinking that if these events were celebrated, what better way to do so than in church? Now I have problems understanding why people observe Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Year's Eve and Day, but do not worship. Are they taking God out of it? It's like those Dutch people who proudly observe Sinter Claas on Dec. 5, and then sneer at those who celebrate Christmas day with presents, arguing that we are mixing Santa Claus with Christ. I really scratch my head over that one to this day.

I know now, Fred, that you have stated the historic position for the Reformed. But I still have trouble with it. I am not, however, going to make waves over it.

 

[shelly]

[quote:e9c0ded40a]
The sum of the argument runs thus: God has only ordained one the Sabbath as the day of worship, and man may not be bound to man-devised worship. When the Church calls a stated worship service, it is the duty of the members to attend. Therefore to call a worship service on Christmas eve, in violation of the RPW is to impermissibly bind the conscience.
[/quote:e9c0ded40a]

I know what you mean about binding the conscience. The churches we have attended in the past all had New Year's Eve services and usually had a Christmas Eve service. The last 3 years we "skipped" some of those services and felt really guilty for staying out of church, especially when the pastor asked if we were coming(my husband was supposed to lead the singing). Talk about feeling like a heel. It was just easier to go out of town.
Fred,
Thanks for the info sites. I'll look them up.

We have always done Christmas trees and greenery. But I decorate for Thanksgiving with fall leaves and other things from nature. Is that a problem too or did I beat the pagans to it?:yes:

That sounded smart alecky, but it is sorta a question. I'll go do some reading and come back with my questions.

shelly

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:f9a78afdf5][i:f9a78afdf5]Originally posted by JohnV[/i:f9a78afdf5]
[quote:f9a78afdf5][i:f9a78afdf5]posted by Fred Greco[/i:f9a78afdf5]
Note that the issue here from a classical reformed perspective (this was Calvin's view, Knox's view, the puritans' view, the Southern Presbyterians' view and the Princetonians' view) is with Christmas and the Church, not the private celebration of Christmas. Thus I, for example, have nothing against Christmas carols, parties, etc. Christmas celebrate all you want (and I with you), but don't replace the God given day with a man-made one. [/quote:f9a78afdf5]
But it was not the view of the Reformed church I grew up in. We had seven "extra services" a year. I grew up thinking that if these events were celebrated, what better way to do so than in church? Now I have problems understanding why people observe Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Year's Eve and Day, but do not worship. Are they taking God out of it? It's like those Dutch people who proudly observe Sinter Claas on Dec. 5, and then sneer at those who celebrate Christmas day with presents, arguing that we are mixing Santa Claus with Christ. I really scratch my head over that one to this day.

I know now, Fred, that you have stated the historic position for the Reformed. But I still have trouble with it. I am not, however, going to make waves over it. [/quote:f9a78afdf5]

John,

I understand what you are saying, and I want to say that hypocrisy is to be avoided at all costs here, just as in other areas of the Christian life.

I also want to say that I am not against a Christmas gathering or celebration, as opposed to a worship service. Lest anyone thing that I am straining at gnats, let me explain why.

First, for the benefit of those who expect "Christmasy" fare. If the gathering is not a worship service, the RPW is not an issue. Then light candles to your hearts content, don't insist on a full sermon, have opportunities for fellowship, children's recitations, etc.

Second, for the benefit of those (we happy few!) who actually believe that it is the duty of the Christian to attend called worship. Shelly's point below is a good one. When was the last time someone in you church made a big deal about Sunday night service? But I bet if you were in town, and didn't come to the Christmas Eve candlelight service, you'd be looked at like someone one step above heathen. Oftentimes, a Christmas Eve service (for example) is very hard to get to, especially with chidlren as you try and make the rounds to relatives, etc.

Finally, here is a point that I think many NEVER think of. I want everyone to know that I became convicted of this as a RULING ELDER, before I ever entered seminary. Do the Christmas Eve service proponents ever think about what that does to the minister and his family? He is the only one who NEVER gets to travel on Christmas - because he is expected to lead the service to make everyone else happy. His children never spend Christmas at Grandpa's, rolling on the floor, laughing and playing games. They never get the tradition of late night egg nog at Aunt Tilly's. Why? Unless their father is in the unusual position of ministering in his hometown, ever part of their holdiay is put on hold for the "special" Christmas Eve service. This may seem like a little thing, and you could argue "that is what the ministry is about", but it seems really trivial, and frankly, downright selfish to me.

 

[cupotea]

I come to this discussion late (the last post appears to have been in November) but I would like to resurrect it and have the following considered.

At one time -- and for many years -- I was of the belief that any Christmas-connected celebration was wrong. The only good that did was allow me an entrance with visiting Jehovah's Witnesses at the Advent season in which one ultimately became a Christian (along with his wife).

During most of this time I was Presbyterian (RPCES)., if that makes any difference.

However, there are two feasts mentioned in the Bible -- neither of them ordained by God -- of which Jesus specifically observed one, namely Hanukkah.

If Jesus could observe Hanukkah why can't I observe Christmas?

I also agree with Fred re: Sunday evening services. In our church it is often mentioned that the members are expected to be at the evening service because all of Sunday is the Lord's Day -- not just the morning.

I do have a problem with Christmas trees in the church but gave that fight up long ago.

 

[puriteen18]

A new discovery...

I noticed that someone had recently posted here so I thought that I woudl share my new discovery with everyone.


I just bought a new book titled [u:6cd70e779d]John Calvin: Writings on Pastoral Piety[/u:6cd70e779d] by Elsie Anne Mckee.

In it, is says that Calvin's Geneva actually observed four feast:

Feast of the Nativity of our LORD (Christmas)
Feast of the Ressurection of our LORD (Easter)
Feast of the Ascension
Pentecostal Feast

They also observed Passion Week.

Not only this, but Calvin had some set prayers for these feasts in his [i:6cd70e779d]La forme des prieses[/i:6cd70e779d].

 

[Preach]

Can someone tell me why holy thursday and good Friday services would violate the regulative principle? These are Scripturally based. This is to say, unlike Christmas (Christ's birth) we know when these days happened, and there are no pagan connotations.
Thanks,
Bobby

 

[JohnV]

Just in case you don't have enough to think about, here is another consideration:

Christ's death and ressurection are celebrated in the Lord's Supper. We don't seem to be prone to doing that once a year, since it is also a sacramented commemoration. Instead we tend toward a more frequent observance, like weekly or monthly, or quarterly. In celebrating Easter, or Ressurection Sunday, are we detracting at all from the sacrament? Or are we confusing them at all?

I don't think that we have to be confusing the two in order to observe both. But we ought to be wary of that. I would rather give up the annual celebration than to make light of the sacrament even a little. Yet I would also not easily give over to the world what rightfully belongs only to Christians to truly celebrate.

There are three times in the year when families traditionally get together: Easter, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. It seems to me that, in our fragmented age, this a a grand time for all of us to worship together as well. After all, we do all recognize the family as the very first institution ordained by God, and that it is the very essence of society. What better could a family do than feast together under the sanction of having worshiped together.

Notice what this does not do. It does not specify a particular service for those days. Why not stay the weekend and worship together on Sunday? But even if the family would worship together on a Thursday, or Tuesday, or Friday, in a special service for that day where such services are provided, it does not have to be that these services are binding. Nor that they replace the regular worship.