"I don't see it that way"

[Christoffer]

I had a discussion with a friend about predestination and human responsibility. This guy actually affirms predestination, those that are elected will be saved.

But then he also maintained that human beings can affect the outcome, ie. be personally responsible for the eternal well-being of an individual.

I would agree that we have an obligation to spread the gospel, but I deny that we can in any way influence whether a person goes to heaven or hell. God will hold us responsible for neglecting our duties, not for sending people to hell.

Anyhow, the person I was talking to affirmed both predestination and human ability to influence. I told him that this is contradictory.

He just replied "I don't see it that way".

In fact this is a quite common response when someone adds to the Bible or teaches contrary to it "This is the way I see it".

It is kind of difficult to reason with people who do not care about consistency or about having Biblical support for what they claim to be true.

How does one respond to that?

 

[Mephibosheth]

Tell him that though he may not "see it that way," it's God's Word and not His. If his views and God's don't match, who needs to make the adjustments? Him. There aren't multiple correct interpretations. There is one.

Scripture cannot ever be interpreted with the thinking, "I don't feel that God would do [whatever]" or "that's not who (or what) I know God to be." God is who God is, and His rules are His rules. He doesn't change to please man. Man must change to please God.

 

[Andres]

This is precisely the reason that confessions are important! Without them, people are free to interpret the scriptures however they "feel" is right.

 

[Caroline]

Well, to be fair, it might just mean that they don't want to talk about it anymore.

I often say that to my family when I just get tired of them bothering me.

Them: "Why are you going to a dead church? Why have you lost all your faith in the working power of God?"

Me: "Well, I don't see it that way."

It's a conversation stopper, as you have realized. There's no foothold for an answer. If someone wants to talk about something, they will give you more fertile ground for discussion by explaining things how exactly they see things. If all they say is, "I don't see it that way", then they are really just saying, "I still don't agree with you, but I'm tired of talking. Go away."

 

[jwright82]

Van Til called people who bahaved that way as epistomological loafers. Although as Caroline wonderfully pointed out they may have been tired of talking about it. If they persist in questioning you on it and that is the only answer they give than I would start by asking them why they see it the way they see it. Sometimes we have to poke and prod, in love of course, people out of there rational lazyness. I would also point out that that statment doesn't reveal why you should see things that way only how this person feels about it, and if they can give you no reason to see it that way than you have no reason to see it that way.

 

[White Knight]

Well, I believe I am personally responsible for the well-being of my wife. I'm told to present her as spotless. I'm not saying that this is the path that your friend was going down, but it might give you another angle to look at in this discussion. Maybe he or she was having issues with someone they care for deeply...

Don't get me wrong, in your 3rd paragraph you were right on. Maybe focus more so on that, and at the end chime up and say a prayer that God would use your friend to God's desired outcome? I know that sounds odd because God's outcome will happen regardless, but focusing only on God and not your friend might provoke a different train of thought. Living in a state like that can only be depressing. All of the responsiblilty on YOUR shoulders. Stating that to your friend, might give them a "pick-me up" and point them in a good direction?

 

[jwithnell]

Yes, I'm thinking it is possible to view the conversation more charitably. Luther wrote: " ... We will not fear, for God hath willed, His truth to triumph through us ... " This line always lingers in my mind -- that God would work through something puny like me! I am responsible for how I represent Christ to the world, but as you have already noted, we can't be held personally accountable for the saving faith of a particular individual. If the person comes to faith, that is the work of the Holy Spirit making our feeble efforts into something magnificent.

As for: "That's not the way I see it," if the person sounds like he really does want to talk (and is not politely trying to leave the conversation) asking questions can go a long way. Eventually, people will begin to contradict themselves if you stretch them to the logical conclusions of their ideas.

 

[Houston E.]

It is kind of difficult to reason with people who do not care about consistency or about having Biblical support for what they claim to be true.

How does one respond to that?

I think you've already answered your own question...
They're just trying to pull you down to their playing field which is away from Scripture. Stick to the Word.

 

[Iconoclast]

Maybe he was thinking about this passage;

Ezekiel 33 (King James Version)

Ezekiel 33
1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Could you say this to Ezekiel;

Anyhow, the person I was talking to affirmed both predestination and human ability to influence. I told him that this is contradictory.

He just replied "I don't see it that way".

Part of God's predestined plan is that he ordains means. We could be used as the means to influence a person if God has chosen to use us as his instruments.