If you consciousness in heaven was similar to your current consciousness...

[dog8food]

...and you were aware that some of your earthly loved ones were suffering consciously and eternally in the lake of fire, would you not feel sad?

This is another one of those difficult questions I face. Recently, my cousin, a young man who just graduated college, and who was a professed atheist, passed away. His family, Christians, felt a double devastation. They visit his grave weekly, and I cannot imagine what must be going through their minds.

So I wonder, when Christians like them go to heaven, and if they contain a remnant in their memory of their unsaved loved ones as well as their eternal doom, how can pure joy be in their hearts?

 

[earl40]

Can we as Christians imagine such?....We can answer yes in the mind, but untill our emotions are totally controled In my most humble opinion this will not happen until God wipes the tears from our eyes in glory.

 

[Elizabeth]

Well, wouldn't it be because in heaven, God(and his sovereignty) will have overcome all earthly affections and finally be placed completely rightly in our hearts?

 

[Pergamum]

We will praise God for all of His righteous judgments.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Since it is sin that disorders our thoughts and affections, being made perfect in holiness (glorified estate) would necessarily result in an overriding approval or complacency--not merely mental, but also emotional--of all the works of God, including his mercy to those on whom he wills to have mercy, and condemnation to those whom he wills to harden so that they have no repentance, faith, or grace. The ungodly receiving what is right and due to them (as wages), those who love right must glorify God for his perfect expression of his own righteousness.

"For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the Lord,
"So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before me," says the Lord.

'And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

--Isaiah 66:22-24


Some of the unease we could feel about a fellow man, who was an earthly friend--now lost to permanent separation from God--is partly the result of a felt earthly mutual affinity, one for another. In death, those bonds of affection between the living (eternally) and the damned are utterly undone. As Jonathan Edwards once penetratingly observed, "Hell is a place of perfect malice and contention." Hell is not a place where men will finally enjoy themselves ideally with all their friends. Where there is not complete alienation from every fellow, that is when one lost soul meets another, it can only result in raw hate--either an attempt to destroy the other, or subdue the other. "Ye shall be as gods..."

We may tend to think those in hell should miss us, as much as we (presently) feel we (will) miss them. This is a conceit, that present loves can cross that unpassable chasm. Your own mother, if she despised God in her heart (God forbid), would pull you into hell with her out of heaven, not because she desired your wellbeing or her own comfort, but for wrath's sake.

 

[dog8food]

We will praise God for all of His righteous judgments.

So are you saying in effect that we only care for the unredeemed now insofar that they "might" be one of God's elect? And that otherwise, our "love" and care for the unsaved is unrighteous (since God will righteously inflict eternal punishment on them)?

 

[earl40]

We may tend to think those in hell should miss us, as much as we (presently) feel we (will) miss them. This is a conceit, that present loves can cross that unpassable chasm. Your own mother, if she despised God in her heart (God forbid), would pull you into hell with her out of heaven, not because she desired your wellbeing or her own comfort, but for wrath's sake.

Pastor Bruce how does the above fit in with?.... 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

For even if it is a parable it would not contain an idea that is not true. Do you think maybe the rich man was lying about his modivation to have someone save his brothers?

 

[Pergamum]

We will praise God for all of His righteous judgments.

So are you saying in effect that we only care for the unredeemed now insofar that they "might" be one of God's elect? And that otherwise, our "love" and care for the unsaved is unrighteous (since God will righteously inflict eternal punishment on them)?

In this age we should weep for the unsaved.

In heaven we will praise God for His justice.

And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever

Revelation 19:3

 

[Pergamum]

We may tend to think those in hell should miss us, as much as we (presently) feel we (will) miss them. This is a conceit, that present loves can cross that unpassable chasm. Your own mother, if she despised God in her heart (God forbid), would pull you into hell with her out of heaven, not because she desired your wellbeing or her own comfort, but for wrath's sake.

Pastor Bruce how does the above fit in with?.... 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

For even if it is a parable it would not contain an idea that is not true. Do you think maybe the rich man was lying about his modivation to have someone save his brothers?

This is what John Bunyan says about the rich man's seeming desire to send Lazarus to prevent his brothers from joining him in hell:

Question. But some may say, What should be the reason that the damned should desire not to have their companions come into the same condition that they are fallen into — but rather that they might be kept from it, and escape that dreadful state?

Answer. I believe there is no such love in any of the damned in Hell, as really to desire the salvation of any. But in that there is any desire in those who are damned, that their friends and relations should not come into that place of torment — it appears to me to be rather for their own ease than for their neighbor's good. For it would aggravate their grief and horror — to see their ungodly neighbors in the like destruction with them. For where the ungodly live and die, and descend into the pit together, the one is rather a vexation and torment to the other, and not any comfort at all. And it must needs be so, because there are no ungodly people who live ungodly together, but they do learn bad examples one of another, as thus: If there lives one in the town who is very shady in business practices — why the rest who are of the same mind with him, they will labor to imitate and follow his steps: this is commonly seen.

Again, if there is one given to drunkenness, others of the town, through his means, run the more into that sin with him, because of his enticing them, and also by setting such a bad example before them.

And so, if there be any addicted to pride, and must needs be in all the newest fashions — how do their example provoke others to love and follow the same vanity; spending that upon their lusts — which should relieve their own and others' wants.

Also, if there are any given to jesting, scoffing, lying, whoring, backbiting, secret wickedness, wantonness, or any other sin — then those who are most expert in these things, ofttimes entangle others, who perhaps would not have been so vile as now they are, had they not had such an example, and hence they are called corrupters (Isa 1:4).

Now these will, by their doings, exceedingly aggravate the condemnation of one another. He who set his neighbor a sinful example, and thereby caused him to walk in sin — he will be found one cause of his friend's destruction, insomuch that he will have to answer for his own sins — AND for a great part of his neighbor's too, which will add to his destruction! As that scripture in Ezekiel shows, where, speaking of the watchman that should give the people warning, if he did not, though the man did die in his sins — yet his blood shall be required at the watchman's hand! (Eze 33).

So here let me tell you, that if you should be such a one, as by your conversation and practices shall be a trap and a stumbling-block to cause your neighbor to fall into eternal ruin though he be damned for his own sins — yet God will charge you as being guilty of his blood, in that you were not content to keep from Heaven yourself — but did also, by your filthy conversation, keep away others, and cause them to fall with you! O, therefore, will not this aggravate your torment! Yes, if you should die and go to Hell before your neighbor or companions, besides the guilt of your own sins — you would be so laden with the fear of the damnation of others to be laid to your charge, that you would cry out: O send one from the dead to this companion and that companion with whom I had society in my lifetime — for I see my cursed behavior will be one cause of his condemnation! I left him living in foul and heinous sins; but I was one of the first instruments to bring him to them. O! I shall be guilty both of my own — and his damnation too! O that he might be kept out hence — lest my torment be aggravated by his coming hither!

For where ungodly people dwell together, they being a snare and stumbling-block one to another by their wicked practices — they must needs be a torment one to another, and an aggravation of each other's damnation!

'O cursed be your face!' says one, 'that ever I set my eyes on you! It was you who enticed me and ensnared me. It was your filthy conversation that was a stumbling-block to me. It was your covetousness, it was your pride, your haunting the ale-house, your gaming and whoring. It was because of you — that I fell short of eternal life! If you had set me a good example, as you did set me a sinful one — it may be I might not have come to this dreadful Hell; but I learned of you, I followed your steps, I took counsel of you. O that I had never seen your face! O that you had never been born to do my soul this wrong, as you have done!'

Says the other, 'O, I may as much blame you, for remember how at such a time, and at such a place — you drew me out, and drew me away, and asked me if I would go with you, when I was going about other business, about my calling; but you called me away, you sent for me — you are as much in the fault as I! Though I were covetous, you were proud; and if you learned covetousness from me, I learned pride and drunkenness from you! Though I taught you to cheat — you taught me to whore, to lie, to scoff at goodness. Though I, base wretch, stumbled you in some things — yet you did as much stumble me in others. I can blame you — just as you blame me! And if I have to answer for some of your most filthy actions — you have to answer for some of mine. I wish you had not come here — your very looks wound my soul, by bringing my sins afresh into my mind — the time when, the manner how, the place where, the persons with whom. It was with you, you! You are a grief to my soul! Since I could not shun your company there in the world — O that I had been without your company here in Hell!

I say, therefore, for those who have sinned together to go to Hell together — it will very much grieve and torment them both. Therefore I judge this is one reason why those who are in Hell desire that their friends or companions do not come there into the same place of torment that they are in. And therefore where Christ says that these damned souls cry out, 'Send to our companions, that they may be warned and commanded to look to themselves, O send to my five brethren!' It is only because they would not have their own torments heightened by their company; and a sense, yes, a continual sense of their sins, which they caused them to commit when they were in the world with them.

I believe that the very looks of those who have been beguiled of their fellows, I say their very looks will be a torment to them! For thereby will the remembrance of their own sins be kept, if possible, the fresher on their consciences, which they committed with them; and also they will wonderfully have the guilt of the others sins upon them, in that they were partly the cause of his committing them, being instruments in the hands of the devil to draw them in too.

And, therefore, lest this come to pass, 'I beg you send Lazarus to my father's house.' For if they might not come hither, perhaps my torment might have some mitigation! That is, if they might be saved, then their sins will be pardoned, and not so heavily charged on my soul. But if they fall into the same place where I am — then the sins that I have caused them to commit will lie so heavy, not only on their souls — but also on mine, that they sin me into eternal misery, deeper and deeper! O therefore send Lazarus to my father's house, to my five brethren, and let him testify to them, lest they come into this place of torment!

A Few Sighs From Hell

 

[earl40]

Thank you Perg. Those in hell are still selfish makes perfect sense.

 

[clark thompson]

I don't think we will know people who are in hell because it would not be a peace knowing they are there.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

This is another one of those difficult questions I face. Recently, my cousin, a young man who just graduated college, and who was a professed atheist, passed away. His family, Christians, felt a double devastation. They visit his grave weekly, and I cannot imagine what must be going through their minds.

I have pastorally counseled people in such a situation. I point out, on the one hand, the warning to us all: we need to repent and believe while it is called "Today." All will bow one day (Phil. 2), even in judgment. Let us bow while it is the day of salvation.

And, on the other hand, while we have no good ground of hope for those who are not known to have professed faith in Christ, we also have no certain knowledge that they are in hell. We don't know with certainty the final disposition of those whom we've not known to profess faith in Christ. It is enough to know that they are in the hands of Him who does all things well (far better than we could ever hope to do: we are not more merciful than God) and if they were His elect, they are with Him.

In heaven, we will be given, as Bruce and others have noted, perfectly to praise God and to see all things from His perspective. This means that we will praise Him for his justice and mercy (Romans 9) and be perfectly satisfied in all that He has decreed. I believe that we can have a measure of that now, both longing for the salvation of all the lost (especially among our family and friends) and knowing and delighting in the reality that He does all things well. Praise be to Him!

Peace,
Alan