Steve Owen
Puritan Board Sophomore
Rich wrote:-
I think you did not read the post very carefully. Look again at what Renihan says:-
Having had some Pastoral responsibility in the past, I am aware that a penny's [dime's] worth of error from the pulpit becomes a pound's [dollar's] worth of bad practice in the pew. If you teach people the doctrine of Presumptive Regeneration, then you can be sure it will come back to haunt you when people take it to its logical extreme as in this example.
Beliefs manifest themselves in practice. If it were just a question of baptism, then I wouldn't spend my time banging on about it. But the Doctrine of PR is pernicious. It inevitably results in self-deception, either by the parent, the child or both.
Look with me at John 3:8. The Lord Jesus makes the issue of the New Birth so very clear. He likens the operation of the Spirit in regeneration to the wind:-
'The wind blows.......' There is reality. The New Birth is not a myth, nor is it something that can be disregarded or relegated into a secondary doctrine.
'.......Where it wishes. There is sovereignty. You cannot pigeon-hole the Holy Spirit and say that He must always work in this way or that, or on these people and not those. If you have ever taught children's Sunday School, you will know that sometimes the star scholar, who seems so interested and so receptive, is often the one who falls away when he grows up. Yet the difficult child, the one who can't sit still, who is cheeky and disupts the reat of the class, sometimes will be the one whom you meet fifteen years later and he's a missionary! The wind blows where it wishes.
'......And you hear the sound of it.' There is observability. If someone, even a small child is regenerate, there will be evidence of it in changed behaviour (Gal 6:19-24 ). Unless and until there is such evidence, then whether or not the child has been baptized; whether or not you have extracted an 'I love Jesus!' from his little lips, you dare not presume that the Holy Spirit has worked upon him.
'.......But [you] cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.' There is mystery. At the end of all our studies of the Scriptures and of the Reformers and Puritans, there is that which will elude us. We cannot pin down the Spirit. All we can say is, 'Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out!' (Rom 11:33).
Grace & Peace,
Martin
[Edited on 2-8-2006 by Martin Marprelate]
You're not coming over all Moslem here and getting offended, are you, Rich? I expected better from you! Aren't you the one who was defending 'rigorous debate' and the use of Reductio ad Absurdum on another thread recently?I'm a little shocked that Martin would post it. Either he has missed the point of what countless posts in the CT forum have presented regarding paedobaptist views or he is presenting a caricature of that view purposefully. To what end I do not know but I expected better.
I think you did not read the post very carefully. Look again at what Renihan says:-
'Individual anecdotes are not normative, but illustrative of the fruit of men´s labours. The fruit of a belief will be seen in how it manifests itself in practice. Ideas have consequences.
Having had some Pastoral responsibility in the past, I am aware that a penny's [dime's] worth of error from the pulpit becomes a pound's [dollar's] worth of bad practice in the pew. If you teach people the doctrine of Presumptive Regeneration, then you can be sure it will come back to haunt you when people take it to its logical extreme as in this example.
Beliefs manifest themselves in practice. If it were just a question of baptism, then I wouldn't spend my time banging on about it. But the Doctrine of PR is pernicious. It inevitably results in self-deception, either by the parent, the child or both.
Look with me at John 3:8. The Lord Jesus makes the issue of the New Birth so very clear. He likens the operation of the Spirit in regeneration to the wind:-
'The wind blows.......' There is reality. The New Birth is not a myth, nor is it something that can be disregarded or relegated into a secondary doctrine.
'.......Where it wishes. There is sovereignty. You cannot pigeon-hole the Holy Spirit and say that He must always work in this way or that, or on these people and not those. If you have ever taught children's Sunday School, you will know that sometimes the star scholar, who seems so interested and so receptive, is often the one who falls away when he grows up. Yet the difficult child, the one who can't sit still, who is cheeky and disupts the reat of the class, sometimes will be the one whom you meet fifteen years later and he's a missionary! The wind blows where it wishes.
'......And you hear the sound of it.' There is observability. If someone, even a small child is regenerate, there will be evidence of it in changed behaviour (Gal 6:19-24 ). Unless and until there is such evidence, then whether or not the child has been baptized; whether or not you have extracted an 'I love Jesus!' from his little lips, you dare not presume that the Holy Spirit has worked upon him.
'.......But [you] cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.' There is mystery. At the end of all our studies of the Scriptures and of the Reformers and Puritans, there is that which will elude us. We cannot pin down the Spirit. All we can say is, 'Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out!' (Rom 11:33).
Grace & Peace,
Martin
[Edited on 2-8-2006 by Martin Marprelate]