Correct; as noted several times, Gillespie puts the question very specifically (see above somewhere).
Is kneeling permitted in worship?
- Thread starter Pergamum
- Start date
- Status
Yes. Moral principal irrespective of RCC idolatry and historical badge of idolatry.
Chris,
Yes, that is what I am not understanding.
I see the reasoning behind a stance against a long-standing Catholic error and think it wise not to look Popish to those acquainted with the Catholic Church and its errors.
But I cannot see anything immoral per se about kneeling in prayer or in corproate worship, since I don't see postures commanded or forbidden anywhere in scripture.
Where are particular postures either commanded or forbidden in Scripture? Wouldn't this be a circumstance of worship rather than an element?
Did Gillespie interact with these verses? Or were his arguments primarily centered on how "papish" kneeling looked?
---------- Post added at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 AM ----------
I also found these quotes and I am trying to determine their authenticity:
and
Would Calvin and Gillespie have disagreed on this issue; or where they addressing different points?
---------- Post added at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 AM ----------
Was this an issue where the reformers were split, or was their an unanimous verdict with only a few dissenters?
---------- Post added at 03:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 AM ----------
Regarding prayer, sitting seems the least proved from Scripture as a recommended posture. Although, while I have eaten standing up, it does seem that kneeling or standing to eat a supper is unusual.
Yes, that is what I am not understanding.
I see the reasoning behind a stance against a long-standing Catholic error and think it wise not to look Popish to those acquainted with the Catholic Church and its errors.
But I cannot see anything immoral per se about kneeling in prayer or in corproate worship, since I don't see postures commanded or forbidden anywhere in scripture.
Where are particular postures either commanded or forbidden in Scripture? Wouldn't this be a circumstance of worship rather than an element?
Did Gillespie interact with these verses? Or were his arguments primarily centered on how "papish" kneeling looked?
---------- Post added at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 AM ----------
I also found these quotes and I am trying to determine their authenticity:
and
Would Calvin and Gillespie have disagreed on this issue; or where they addressing different points?
---------- Post added at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 AM ----------
Was this an issue where the reformers were split, or was their an unanimous verdict with only a few dissenters?
---------- Post added at 03:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 AM ----------
Regarding prayer, sitting seems the least proved from Scripture as a recommended posture. Although, while I have eaten standing up, it does seem that kneeling or standing to eat a supper is unusual.
Pergy, Have you read the portion of Gillespie that Chris offered? I suggest you do that.
Why not check Gillespie out? I've already given the basic argument which stood between him and the Anglicans above somewhere. He makes his case in the PDF I'm making available. As to the verses, we have the record of the institution of the Lord's Supper and the posture used. I see no case to vary from it. Yet assume the case posture is merely is circumstantial, more the reason to avoid kneeling per rules governing things indifferent (supposedly) and the rule I've noted out of Gillespie on dealing with monuments of idolatry.
dudley
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I agree with you Chris. To kneel as the Romanist idolaters is to recognize that the bread has the carnal presence of Christ as the Lutherans also do. As Reformed Protestants we should remember that the Lord is present spiritually in communion and the bread and wine are sacramental signs to remind us of the sacrifice of Christ and the last supper which was meal. We receive and eat and drink the wine for spiritual nourishment of our souls. We receive the bread as such the body and blood of Christ are truly communicated because the bread and wine are sacramental signs by which he true communion not to be perishable food for the body but nourishment and food for eternal life , our soul. Thus the real presence of Christ is affirmed yet any carnal or local notion of presence be it Roman catholic or Lutheran is denied. I deny the roman catholic and Lutheran view and kneeling would send the message that we recognize the carnal presence of Christ which we do not …it is idolatry.
English Popish Ceremonies: Historical Introduction by Roy Middleton | Naphtali Press
A dispute against the English popish ceremonies, obtruded upon the Church of Scotland : Gillespie, George, 1613-1648 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Here is where I accessed this book. I have not read all of it. Some parts are heavy plodding. The portion on the dedication of buildings, etc, was interesting, though.
The phrase that is repeated over and over is "Popish ceremonies." I.e., the argument seems to turn upon the inappropriateness of an action due to past idolatries associated with this action (by Rome).
Where is kneeling addressed? Can you help me find the chapter: Part 7: Popish Ceremonies are Proved to be Idolatrous Because They are Formally Idols Themselves (EPC 3.4.1-3.4.6) | Naphtali Press
---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 AM ----------
Dudley,
I am looking for an argument as to why kneeling, in and of itself (without any reference to Popish ceremonies) is wrong. Is it wrong per se, or only wrong due to what historical abuses have caused it to mean?
It appears that kneeling in prayer is fine. If, however, one kneeled to pray and then immediately took the supper, I am trying to see how this could be wrong.
---------- Post added at 05:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 AM ----------
Linked is a website of a Presbyterian church that practices kneeling in worship: Heritage Presbyterian Church - Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Are their reasons sound?
Can we say that kneeling in prayer is permitted but kneeling upon receiving the supper is not? What if prayer directly precedes receiving the supper, must we require the partaker to stand before administering the supper first?
A dispute against the English popish ceremonies, obtruded upon the Church of Scotland : Gillespie, George, 1613-1648 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Here is where I accessed this book. I have not read all of it. Some parts are heavy plodding. The portion on the dedication of buildings, etc, was interesting, though.
The phrase that is repeated over and over is "Popish ceremonies." I.e., the argument seems to turn upon the inappropriateness of an action due to past idolatries associated with this action (by Rome).
Where is kneeling addressed? Can you help me find the chapter: Part 7: Popish Ceremonies are Proved to be Idolatrous Because They are Formally Idols Themselves (EPC 3.4.1-3.4.6) | Naphtali Press
---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 AM ----------
Dudley,
I am looking for an argument as to why kneeling, in and of itself (without any reference to Popish ceremonies) is wrong. Is it wrong per se, or only wrong due to what historical abuses have caused it to mean?
It appears that kneeling in prayer is fine. If, however, one kneeled to pray and then immediately took the supper, I am trying to see how this could be wrong.
---------- Post added at 05:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 AM ----------
Linked is a website of a Presbyterian church that practices kneeling in worship: Heritage Presbyterian Church - Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Are their reasons sound?
Can we say that kneeling in prayer is permitted but kneeling upon receiving the supper is not? What if prayer directly precedes receiving the supper, must we require the partaker to stand before administering the supper first?
dudley
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
It is wrong primarily due to what historical abuses have caused it to mean. That is why the Reformers objected. I agreed with Chris. To kneel as the Romanist idolaters is to recognize that the bread has the carnal presence of Christ as the Lutherans also do. As Reformed Protestants we should remember that the Lord is present spiritually in communion and the bread and wine are sacramental signs to remind us of the sacrifice of Christ and the last supper which was meal. The real presence of Christ is affirmed yet any carnal or local notion of presence be it Roman catholic or Lutheran is denied. I deny the roman catholic and Lutheran view and kneeling would send the message that we recognize the carnal presence of Christ which we do not …it is idolatry. I was always repulsed even while still a Roman catholic at the adoration of a bread wafer. I knew Christ was present and at one time I believed in the catholic teaching of transubstantiation. After Vatican II the worship of the bread wafer stopped. Then this current pope re introduced it and many other old popish ceremonies…that is when I left the Roman catholic church and became a Protestant. I discovered that Calvin and Knox’s teaching on the Lords Supper was what I believed to be the truth. My study of the Protestant reformation also led me to believe that both transubstantiation and the adoration of the Eucharist were inventions of 11th century popes. No Biblical basis. I renounced all those Roman catholic teachings when I renounced the pope and roman Catholicism at the time I was becoming a Presbyterian. I now believe to kneel and adore a piece of bread is a blasphemy of the Lords Supper. It is heresy and to kneel would to me give a sign that we accept the view of the papists . I also as I said am repulsed now a the adoration of the bread , Mary , the saints and all the popish rituals which deny the true message of salvation. I now think that the catholic teaching on the Lords supper and practices are a blasphemy and I also think the mass is an abomination. I renounce it as did the reformers did. I think we need to keep our Protestant identity. I can identify with Calvin and I understand what he meant when he said “Surely, though, they should not have a monopoly on reverence in worship. John Calvin (who thought the Pope was the Antichrist!) himself recommended kneeling in prayer to assist our hearts: I also like Calvin think the papacy is an antichrist institution and popes are in essence anti-Christ’s .It is also why I renounced the pope when I renounced my Roman Catholicism . I believe and follow the original Westminster Confession. I think there is an argument for kneeling but my fear is it would be misunderstood. I have distanced myself from anything that is Roman catholic and popish in any way. I think Roman Catholicism is a man made religion and her distortions are a deceit of Satan himself. I do think the Roman catholic church is the Whore of Babylon .It is why I am now a Reformed Protestant.
To turn the question on its head, where does it say to sit and fold our hands during prayer or worship? I agree that care should be given during the Lord's table because of the idolatrous association with the mass. (Although, our lack of an alter mitigates to some extent.) But I think we've been reactionary against both the RC and the charismatics. Lifting hands in worship and praise and having the opportunity to kneel during prayer are squarely Biblical. Since the first (praise) is not normally associated w/reformed worship, I'd be concerned about being ostentatious. But in prayer, who should be looking except God?
This is precisely why I do not participate in the Lord's table at my folk's Lutheran church.
Dudley,
You stated,
In regions which have no acquaintance with Catholicism, is it thus still wrong (if no idolatry is attached to it and one kneels in prayer directly prior to partaking and doesn't bother with taking another posture before taking the supper)? Would you agree that there is no universal morally binding principal which makes kneeling per se (in and of itself) wrong when partaking the supper?
Pergy, Chris offered to email anyone the section that discussed it in relation to the Lord's table. You need to message him. Kneeling at the Lord's table has a host of problems. Message Chris and he will send you the pdf.
The 33 page extract from the forthcoming revised text of EPC covers section 7-28 (end of chapter) which is all the section on kneeling. I have sent Pergamum the extract but one can look online for part 3 chapter four, and those sections to read the 19th or 17th century text. The extract has extensive addendum on bibliography and the Latin translated. And the PDF should be a very clean read; but I have disabled cut and paste and high quality printing given the provisional nature of the file and that it is from a forthcoming publication.
Again, Gillespie is not arguing against the posture of kneeling in total, but against it at the receiving the elements of the Lord's supper. I gave the thesis above more than once I think. So there are two arguments; one is against kneeling at communion as noted in the thesis as simply unlawful; the other is that it needs to be avoided due to it being a monument of idolatry and badge of ongoing idolatry with the RCC.
Again, Gillespie is not arguing against the posture of kneeling in total, but against it at the receiving the elements of the Lord's supper. I gave the thesis above more than once I think. So there are two arguments; one is against kneeling at communion as noted in the thesis as simply unlawful; the other is that it needs to be avoided due to it being a monument of idolatry and badge of ongoing idolatry with the RCC.
- Status
