Is what Pat Robertson said correct?
- Thread starter Claudiu
- Start date
- Status
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
Factual correctness about an ugly strain in Haitian culture spoken at a time of catastrophic disaster and unspeakable human loss does not exactly sound the right note. It is no more helpful than telling a family who just lost their son in a motorcycle accident "I told you so. Motorcycles are too dangeous."
The superstition and Vodoo inherent in much of Haitian culture will -- along with generations of dysfunctional societal practices -- make it very difficult to "rebuild" Haiti. Yes, there are consequences for turning one's back upon the Lord. Generational implications abound. But, only a fool would draw attention to it on national television while the bodies are still being counted. This is a time to weep with those who weep and stand in solidarity with our fellow human beings in their misery.
John Piper sounded the right note after the collapse of the bridge a few years back when he drew attention to the Luke 13 text and suggested that the appropriate message for us all in times of such divine warning is pretty simple: "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." An evangelist with a national audience might do well to follow the example of Jesus in times like these.
The superstition and Vodoo inherent in much of Haitian culture will -- along with generations of dysfunctional societal practices -- make it very difficult to "rebuild" Haiti. Yes, there are consequences for turning one's back upon the Lord. Generational implications abound. But, only a fool would draw attention to it on national television while the bodies are still being counted. This is a time to weep with those who weep and stand in solidarity with our fellow human beings in their misery.
John Piper sounded the right note after the collapse of the bridge a few years back when he drew attention to the Luke 13 text and suggested that the appropriate message for us all in times of such divine warning is pretty simple: "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." An evangelist with a national audience might do well to follow the example of Jesus in times like these.
Confessor
Puritan Board Senior
Yes, I was wrong in saying we shouldn't be mad at him for saying it. He was speaking the truth unseasonably and thereby breaking the ninth commandment.
Wayne
Tempus faciendi, Domine.
Pergy: I am not saying that Robertson was right. Nor do I know much about national covenanting, other than that its practitioners were generally men of high theological knowledge and moral character. That is sufficient initial basis for not ruling the practice out of hand without further study. Robertson on the other hand speaks from a deficit theological foundation.
To affirm Dennis' comment above, there is truth and then there is knowing when to tell someone the truth. To speak the truth in love often means knowing when to speak.
To affirm Dennis' comment above, there is truth and then there is knowing when to tell someone the truth. To speak the truth in love often means knowing when to speak.
There are so many problems even from an historical perspective and theological perspective to what Robertson said. First there was no national swearing allegiance to Satan. Yes it is true that Voodu is a false religion and its very in the national psyché of the people. And is it possible that the intellecual elite of Haiti were participants in it and they were the driving forces in the French Rebellion. But this does not mean that it is a voodu nation where every single person is a partipant. The DR also has strong Voodu influences in it (though not to the same extent) and yet it has its own huge problems and while financially better off than Haiti, the sex trade hurts its children just as much as in its poorer neighbor. Second of all, we cannot know why God ordains things to happen and it does us no good to think about it. We must just accept providence and respond in such a way that the Law of God requires. To try and blame a naural disaster on anything other than the natural order and the fall of adam is in essense idolatry because we claim to know the mind of God outside of what he has revealed in Scripture. My friend went to Haiti last year to help teach in a school there (she speaks french) created by a reformed/evangelical church. Here is the before and after pic:
Login | Facebook
It is not for us to know the reason why but it is for us to obey God and to love, to preach, to serve. If you have not donated money yet, I encourage you to do so. And please do not listen to your political heroes and please listen to the Word of God and help.
Login | Facebook
It is not for us to know the reason why but it is for us to obey God and to love, to preach, to serve. If you have not donated money yet, I encourage you to do so. And please do not listen to your political heroes and please listen to the Word of God and help.
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
I not sure how I can disagree with your analogy any more than I do. First off, one can make a case for motorcycles, no one can make a case for Satanism. A better analogy, A devastated man whose wife left him and took the children, and one says "you do know that she left because you beat her and cheat on her." And then everyone pounces because the lack of sensitivity. Or perhaps this one: A person who openly and defiantly does drugs for 15 years, suddenly dies from a massive heart attack, and someone points out, "You do know that drug use is deadly, right."
If one wants to disagree with what Pat said, that is completely fine, but I think the out of season talk is a copout. If one believes that 100k or so people are dead due to willful ongoing Satan worship, when is the proper time to say something? Pat didn't say that one should not send money, and he even spoke of hopefully good coming out of it in causing a revival and turning away from witchcraft and to the gospel.
The basic issue is whether this passage can be used to show that God no longer judges nations. Unless that is assumed or proven, then I am not sure how this can be used against Pat?
CT
Does Jeremiah Burroughs represent classical Puritan thinking, seeing as this is the Puritan board?
I am asking because in the Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment, it seems like he sees a whole lot of things as direct judgment. For example, plague was rampant and he considered it a direct judgment from God because of murmuring and griping discontent among the people. (He appeals to Numbers). He saw a lot of things as direct judgements like fires, etc, and had a strong Old Testament view of how God dealt with England as a nation. It seems to be presented as direct cause and effect. Loss of health and wealth is called an external judgment ( not to be compared with the awfulness of spiritual judgment).
There is an awful lot of judgment terminology for external afflictions. It appears he would certainly call this earthquake one ( although hopefully one used to bring people to repent) . So is this the general Puritan view, or is Burroughs atypical?
edit to add that I think DrMc is right that this is a time to grieve with the sorrowing, and not to blame them on nationwide TV. Jesus healed people first and after that he said " go and sin no more".
I am asking because in the Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment, it seems like he sees a whole lot of things as direct judgment. For example, plague was rampant and he considered it a direct judgment from God because of murmuring and griping discontent among the people. (He appeals to Numbers). He saw a lot of things as direct judgements like fires, etc, and had a strong Old Testament view of how God dealt with England as a nation. It seems to be presented as direct cause and effect. Loss of health and wealth is called an external judgment ( not to be compared with the awfulness of spiritual judgment).
There is an awful lot of judgment terminology for external afflictions. It appears he would certainly call this earthquake one ( although hopefully one used to bring people to repent) . So is this the general Puritan view, or is Burroughs atypical?
edit to add that I think DrMc is right that this is a time to grieve with the sorrowing, and not to blame them on nationwide TV. Jesus healed people first and after that he said " go and sin no more".
Wayne
Tempus faciendi, Domine.
Basically, yes, Burroughs was in line with much of Puritan thinking in seeing such things as judgments.
Similar sermons and discourses can be found in the American pulpit well into the 19th century. One notable example that comes to mind was a fire in a theatre in Richmond, VA, in which 160 people died. That tragedy prompted sermons from Princeton's Samuel Miller and others, generally using that occasion to denounce the stage and more largely, worldliness.
I think Chris Coldwell included Miller's sermon in an early issue of The Naphtali Press Anthology, now long out of print, but issues show up at inflated prices on eBay from time to time.
[Interesting to think of Reformed/Presbyterian publications as investments, but some of those volumes have commanded a good sum in recent years]
Similar sermons and discourses can be found in the American pulpit well into the 19th century. One notable example that comes to mind was a fire in a theatre in Richmond, VA, in which 160 people died. That tragedy prompted sermons from Princeton's Samuel Miller and others, generally using that occasion to denounce the stage and more largely, worldliness.
I think Chris Coldwell included Miller's sermon in an early issue of The Naphtali Press Anthology, now long out of print, but issues show up at inflated prices on eBay from time to time.
[Interesting to think of Reformed/Presbyterian publications as investments, but some of those volumes have commanded a good sum in recent years]
Archlute
Puritan Board Senior
With the continuing discussion I would point you all to the sermon link on this thread:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f23/light-recent-events-haiti-most-likely-best-sermon-out-there-57760/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f23/light-recent-events-haiti-most-likely-best-sermon-out-there-57760/
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
Hermonta,
Pick my analogy apart if you like. My point was that "I told you so" seldom accomplishes any positive end. Do I believe that Haiti sufferes from self inflicted wounds, some of them tracing to systemic counterproductive economics, a poor work ethic, a series of very bad political decisions by selfish home-grown dictators, exploitation by outside powers, and their superstitious idolatry? Sure. But, I still think that Piper's approach (affirm a sovereign God and follow the biblical example for how to interpret disasters via the pericope in Luke) makes the most sense. Of course God can judge nations as Jesus also believed while he was saying the words recorded in Luke. I just think this is a poor time to lead with an "I told you so" point. You don't. I got it.
Wayne
Tempus faciendi, Domine.
Another bit of history, but more addressed to Dennis and Hermonta:
Many of us are learning a lot about Haiti that we never knew. Following the slave revolt that kicked the French out, somehow the French managed to leverage payment of reparations against the new nation. The imposed tab was about $150 milliion USD then or 1.5 billion in today's money. And Haiti worked at paying it off!, finally canceling the debt in 1947. That immense debt kept the island nation from ever really getting established. Another factor in the large mix of problems that nation has seen and experienced.
Many of us are learning a lot about Haiti that we never knew. Following the slave revolt that kicked the French out, somehow the French managed to leverage payment of reparations against the new nation. The imposed tab was about $150 milliion USD then or 1.5 billion in today's money. And Haiti worked at paying it off!, finally canceling the debt in 1947. That immense debt kept the island nation from ever really getting established. Another factor in the large mix of problems that nation has seen and experienced.
Christusregnat
Puritan Board Professor
National covenants are real. For anyone in doubt, the Old Testament may be consulted.
Peoples can make compacts with Satan or compacts with the living God. It should be noted that there is no neutral ground in this regard, only gradations between the two.
Also, the covenants with God or the devil may be more or less formalized, as a country that allows all religions is informally in a compact with the devil (such as the U.S.) even as Haiti may or may not have been formally so engaged.
Cheers,
Peoples can make compacts with Satan or compacts with the living God. It should be noted that there is no neutral ground in this regard, only gradations between the two.
Also, the covenants with God or the devil may be more or less formalized, as a country that allows all religions is informally in a compact with the devil (such as the U.S.) even as Haiti may or may not have been formally so engaged.
Cheers,
VilnaGaon
Puritan Board Sophomore
In 1656 the Black Madonna was crowned the Queen and Protector of Poland by the King at that time. Considering that many Christians myself included, would consider the Black Madonna as having nothing to do with the Biblical virgin Mary, but rather a blasphemous idol and a kind of devil worship, does this mean that Poland is under some kind of covenantal curse like Haiti?
If national covenants are real, who has the power to represent a country before God or Satan? A bunch of Scotish Covenanters? A bunch of voodoo priests? Or the king or civil magistrate? Or can private citizens (do they need a majority)?
Why don't we all on the pb get together then?
Why don't we all on the pb get together then?
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Does it make a difference if you make a pact to worship Satan or just do it every day without the pact? Those who bow to Satan, Allah, Buddah, Mary etc... are all idolaters and worshipping a false deity. By some earlier in this thread assumptions, the Middle East should have been swallowed up years ago along with many other nations.
Wayne
Tempus faciendi, Domine.
Let me say up front that I've never studied the subject of national covenanting, and so I am not here presenting an argument for the practice. I am merely presenting some material for further study, if you are so inclined.
The biggest question is whether such practice is restricted to the nation of Israel? Just because you see something practiced in the Old Testament doesn't mean that practice can be brought into contemporary use.
As Adam said, national covenants can be found set forth in the Old Testament. The following is ripped from Wikipedia, which will suffice for our purposes at the moment and saves me a bit of work:
That entry goes on to mention personal covenants, but it looked weak in the references, so I'll skip it here. Personal covenanting was practiced by a number of the Puritans and early Scottish Presbyterians, including notably Thomas Boston. See his Works for several examples. (I have the suspicion that New Year's resolutions historically derive from the practice of personal covenanting, but I've never researched that idea).
National covenanting in the "modern" era is perhaps best illustrated by the Solemn League and Covenant in 1643. Prior to that there had been the National Covenant (1638), and there were subsequent re-affirmations too, and these all get ensconced in the Reformed Presbyterian and Associate Presbyterian denominations as doctrinal planks, where to be a member you must affirm those covenants. Membership requirements in some of these groups becomes very lengthy. Some of these groups are dogmatic that these Scottish covenants are still binding on, at the very least, all of the Commonwealth nations, including the U.S.A. I find that argument unconvincing and untenable.
The biggest question is whether such practice is restricted to the nation of Israel? Just because you see something practiced in the Old Testament doesn't mean that practice can be brought into contemporary use.
As Adam said, national covenants can be found set forth in the Old Testament. The following is ripped from Wikipedia, which will suffice for our purposes at the moment and saves me a bit of work:
That entry goes on to mention personal covenants, but it looked weak in the references, so I'll skip it here. Personal covenanting was practiced by a number of the Puritans and early Scottish Presbyterians, including notably Thomas Boston. See his Works for several examples. (I have the suspicion that New Year's resolutions historically derive from the practice of personal covenanting, but I've never researched that idea).
National covenanting in the "modern" era is perhaps best illustrated by the Solemn League and Covenant in 1643. Prior to that there had been the National Covenant (1638), and there were subsequent re-affirmations too, and these all get ensconced in the Reformed Presbyterian and Associate Presbyterian denominations as doctrinal planks, where to be a member you must affirm those covenants. Membership requirements in some of these groups becomes very lengthy. Some of these groups are dogmatic that these Scottish covenants are still binding on, at the very least, all of the Commonwealth nations, including the U.S.A. I find that argument unconvincing and untenable.
Wayne
Tempus faciendi, Domine.
One of my "go to" resources is the six volume set, The Morning Exercises at Cripplegate. These are gathered discourses from conferences of pastors in late 17th century London. In vol. 4, pp. 585-616, there is this relevant address:
Williams, Daniel, "What Repentance of National Sins doth God require, as ever We expect National Mercies". Text is Hosea 10:12, and I shouldn't be so surprised anymore to find it is online.
Williams, Daniel, "What Repentance of National Sins doth God require, as ever We expect National Mercies". Text is Hosea 10:12, and I shouldn't be so surprised anymore to find it is online.
Confessor
Puritan Board Senior
The fact that such nations have not yet received their punishment does not imply that they are not nationally culpable. God can be waiting for the wicked's sins to be "filled up," as with the Amorites, Gen. 15:16.
Wayne
Tempus faciendi, Domine.
The world over, for every nation, solely Scottish covenanters have that power. 
Seriously, for the State, the standard answer would be the magistrate. For the Church, the elders.
Which raises a related topic, not of national covenanting, but of mediatorial prayer. Think of Daniel's prayer on behalf of Israel, or that of Moses "standing in the gap". Here it becomes a bit more cloudy in terms of who may serve in this capacity, and I think any Christian or group of Christians is certainly encouraged and competent to so pray, though they may not in God's eyes have the same place of authority as a body of elders.
Also related would be praying for healing, as per James 5:13-18. Note there the role and place of the elders of the church.
A sermon by William Jenkyn, "How Ought We to Bewail the Sins of the Places Where We Live?", also in The Morning Exercises at Cripplegate, vol. 3, was the first to unpack for me this idea of mediatorial prayer. Once I was aware of it, I then saw that the same doctrine is taught by any number
of other Puritan pastors and authors.
Seriously, for the State, the standard answer would be the magistrate. For the Church, the elders.
Which raises a related topic, not of national covenanting, but of mediatorial prayer. Think of Daniel's prayer on behalf of Israel, or that of Moses "standing in the gap". Here it becomes a bit more cloudy in terms of who may serve in this capacity, and I think any Christian or group of Christians is certainly encouraged and competent to so pray, though they may not in God's eyes have the same place of authority as a body of elders.
Also related would be praying for healing, as per James 5:13-18. Note there the role and place of the elders of the church.
A sermon by William Jenkyn, "How Ought We to Bewail the Sins of the Places Where We Live?", also in The Morning Exercises at Cripplegate, vol. 3, was the first to unpack for me this idea of mediatorial prayer. Once I was aware of it, I then saw that the same doctrine is taught by any number
of other Puritan pastors and authors.
- Status
