James White on Augustine

[M_Scott]

I was listening to James White on a Dividing Line episode dated September 16, 2014 on The Monster God Debate: Why Those Under the Authority of Scripture Struggle to Speak to Those Who Are Not | Alpha and Omega Ministries

He gets the episode going by refering to a debate between Michael Brown and Brian Zahnd on the Atonement. James White makes a passing comment that at the time of the Reformation both sides could quote Augustine and be consistant doing so because of Augustine's own inconsistancy in his theology. White mentions many isms, Origen's Allegorical Method infecting large portions of the church, the Old Testament becoming a closed book, etc. White doesn't follow up with what Augustine specifically (in White's view) was suffering from - too much philosophy, bad view of the Atonement, ignoring the OT when formulating his theology...?

I'm not qualified to speak to this with any certainty but I'm curious - are there deep holes or significant problems in Augustine's theology, if so where? These things are said within the first 15 minutes so you don't need to listen to the whole episode, but the remarks by Brian Zahnd are incredible if not very very sad and troubling so you may want to listen or watch all of this episode.

If anyone has some insight, TIA.

Mike

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Augustine had a position similar to a Reformed view of grace but a position similar to the Roman Catholic church on the doctrine of the church.

 

[MarieP]

I don't remember if the quote was original with Dr. White or not, but he often says that the Reformation, inwardly considered, is the triumph of Augustine's view of grace over his view of the church.

 

[Justified]

I don't remember if the quote was original with Dr. White or not, but he often says that the Reformation, inwardly considered, is the triumph of Augustine's view of grace over his view of the church.

I want to say that was BB Warfield. Though I may be wrong.

 

[Hamalas]

I don't remember if the quote was original with Dr. White or not, but he often says that the Reformation, inwardly considered, is the triumph of Augustine's view of grace over his view of the church.

I want to say that was BB Warfield. Though I may be wrong.

Yes, Warfield said that. "Augustine was both the founder of Roman Catholicism and the author of that doctrine of grace which it has been the constantly pursued effort of Roman Catholicism to neutralize, and which in very fact either must be neutralized by, or will neutralize, Roman Catholicism. Two children were struggling in the womb of his mind. There can be no doubt which was the child of his heart. His doctrine of the Church he had received whole from his predecessors, and he gave it merely the precision and vitality which insured its persistence. His doctrine of grace was all his own:it represented the very core of his being . . . it was inevitable, had time been allowed, that his inherited doctrine of the Church, too, with all its implications, would have gone down before it, and Augustine would have bequeathed to the Church, not "problems," but a thoroughly worked out system of evangelical religion. . . . The problem which Augustine bequeathed to the Church for solution, the Church required a thousand years to solve. But even so, it is Augustine who gave us the Reformation. For the Reformation, inwardly considered, was just the ultimate triumph of Augustine's doctrine of grace over Augustine's doctrine of the Church. (Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, 321-22)

 

[MarieP]

Yes, Warfield said that. "Augustine was both the founder of Roman Catholicism and the author of that doctrine of grace which it has been the constantly pursued effort of Roman Catholicism to neutralize, and which in very fact either must be neutralized by, or will neutralize, Roman Catholicism. Two children were struggling in the womb of his mind. There can be no doubt which was the child of his heart. His doctrine of the Church he had received whole from his predecessors, and he gave it merely the precision and vitality which insured its persistence. His doctrine of grace was all his own:it represented the very core of his being . . . it was inevitable, had time been allowed, that his inherited doctrine of the Church, too, with all its implications, would have gone down before it, and Augustine would have bequeathed to the Church, not "problems," but a thoroughly worked out system of evangelical religion. . . . The problem which Augustine bequeathed to the Church for solution, the Church required a thousand years to solve. But even so, it is Augustine who gave us the Reformation. For the Reformation, inwardly considered, was just the ultimate triumph of Augustine's doctrine of grace over Augustine's doctrine of the Church. (Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, 321-22)

Thanks! A great quote!