John 3:16

[Notthemama1984]

I was listening to a sermon on John 3:16 a few days ago on my IPOD and the pastor mentioned that "whosoever believes" is literally translated "all the believers." I had never heard this before so when I got home I looked it up in my interlinear and became confused. I see "pas ho pisteuo" which is adjective, article, verb. Now adjectives do not describe verbs.


So is this a case where "pisteuo" should be seen as a noun and translated believer as it is in a few other passages and thus the original pastor was right?

Thanks

 

[toddpedlar]

I was listening to a sermon on John 3:16 a few days ago on my IPOD and the pastor mentioned that "whosoever believes" is literally translated "all the believers." I had never heard this before so when I got home I looked it up in my interlinear and became confused. I see "pas ho pisteuo" which is adjective, article, verb. Now adjectives do not describe verbs.


So is this a case where "pisteuo" should be seen as a noun and translated believer as it is in a few other passages and thus the original pastor was right?

Thanks

but it doesn't say "pas ho pisteuo", but "pas ho pisteuwn". That is, the characterization of this phrase as "adj, article, verb" isn't quite right - it's "adjective, article, participle". That is, pas, or "all" (or "every" in this case since the participle is singular), modifies the participle pisteuwn that can be translated "believer". I.e. "every believer". In the context, "hina (so that) pas (every) ho pisteuwn (believer) eis auton (in him) mh (not) apolhtai (be lost, perish)".

 

[Contra_Mundum]

There isn't anything wrong with the KJV rendering. The pas when used singularly (as in this case) means "every". But "every the (ho, def. art.) believer" is obviously grammatically improper for an English rendering. The participle is nominative, masculine, and singular.

The point is to emphasize that in every single case of the one believing, that one will not perish, but live everlastingly. "Whosoever" is simply a way to translate the pas+ho, the all+definite article.

To emphasize "whosoever" as if the emphasis were on some (non-existent) noun or even on the ubiquitous def. art., and the "believeth" was some sort of qualifier of that "anybody" is the grammatically indefensible position.

 

[toddpedlar]

Perhaps I missed the gist of the OP's question - I was too fixated on correcting the concern about adjectives modifying verbs (which again isn't what's going on here - it's "every" modifying a participle). Yes, as Bruce has pointed out "whosoever" is often taken in Arminian churches to have some sort of open-endedness that isn't there. The point here is as we've both mentioned, "so that every believer not perish" is the real thrust of the verse, i.e. the reason God sacrificed His Son - to secure every one of those who believe.

 

[smhbbag]

I was listening to a sermon on John 3:16 a few days ago on my IPOD and the pastor mentioned that "whosoever believes" is literally translated "all the believers." I had never heard this before so when I got home I looked it up in my interlinear and became confused. I see "pas ho pisteuo" which is adjective, article, verb. Now adjectives do not describe verbs.


So is this a case where "pisteuo" should be seen as a noun and translated believer as it is in a few other passages and thus the original pastor was right?

Thanks

I certainly can't help with the original language aspect, but in English I see the two translations as a distinction without a difference.

The phrases are all logically equivalent in every respect. whosoever believes = whoever believes = all the believing ones (without exception) = all the believers (without exception).

None of them carries any meaning regarding who can believe, who will believe, how that comes about, etc, and Arminians who shout "Whosoever!" from the rooftops are still in error in applying it regardless of what translation is there.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Thanks for all the insight.

I agree with everyone's ultimate interpretation, but I was not sure if it was as easy as saying "all the believers" or if this pastor was stretching the Greek to help make his point easier.

 

[CharlieJ]

It's a slight stylistic difference. "The believers" refers specifically to a group of people. One biblical way to express this would be hOI PISTOI. It is used to describe the people without special emphasis on the act that delineates them as part of the class. An example would be Acts 10:45, where "the believers" aren't doing any believing, they're just the subject of the verb.

The ones believing (with the participle) refers to a group of people considered especially in the quality of believing. So, I think the traditional rendering is more consistent with the Johannine emphasis of believing as the instrument of receiving eternal life.

 

[toddpedlar]

As Bruce noted, there's nothing wrong with "whosoever" as a translation. The problem is with the interpretive spin that's often foisted onto that word, which was almost certainly not in the minds of the AV translators. The point is that it is those who believe for whom God gave Christ. Whether you say "that everyone who believes will not perish" or "whosoever believes will not perish" is irrelevant. It's a distinction without a difference.

 

[Hilasmos]

Thanks for all the insight.

I agree with everyone's ultimate interpretation, but I was not sure if it was as easy as saying "all the believers" or if this pastor was stretching the Greek to help make his point easier.

Yes, I think it's that easy. That translation follows the general rule that when you have a substantival participle it is translated, if singular, "the one who ...+ ptcp translated as finite verb." In this case, it is everyone who believes" or "every believing one." If it were plural: "All the ones who believe, or, all the believing ones"