Keith Green(again)

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And that statement right there pinpoints the pride that brought your contentions into this thread in the first place. If you want to critique a man to his fans, and yet refuse to read the material being recommended to you that you might get a better understanding of his thought and life, what sort of credibility do you think that you are going to hold with them?

I mean, come on, you couldn't get away with pulling something like that in seminary. "Hey prof, I don't need to actually read Tillich to write this paper in critique of his work. I just pulled a few quotes off of some website. That should be good enough to get the full picture, right?"

I can only recall reading one biography in seminary of a commentator I critiqued for an exegetical paper, and that just happened to be the famed Karl Barth, and Keith Green, as all have admitted, is no Karl Barth. Yet his teaching for all that is no less dangerous, and probably alot more popularised. Why reformed believers feel this man should be exempt from having his teachings tested and proved, I don't know. His teachings are there for all to hear. But I do know it is not necessary to know something of the particulars of his life in order to evaluate the principles he inculcates in his musical teaching ministry.

And this idea of divorcing religion, or love and zeal to God, from theology, stems from the theology of feeling; it is not biblical in the slightest.
 
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Keith was a great musician. It should also be remembered that he was a musician first, and not a theologian.

That being said, I have always enjoyed his "There Is a Redeemer", as well as a few other tunes. The man evinced a spark of life and love for God that not a few of his brothers and sisters could stand to learn from, even while they might want to go elsewhere for learning theology.

-----Added 3/26/2009 at 07:44:00 EST-----

I don't need to read the biography of him.

And that statement right there pinpoints the pride that brought your contentions into this thread in the first place. If you want to critique a man to his fans, and yet refuse to read the material being recommended to you that you might get a better understanding of his thought and life, what sort of credibility do you think that you are going to hold with them?

I mean, come on, you couldn't get away with pulling something like that in seminary. "Hey prof, I don't need to actually read Tillich to write this paper in critique of his work. I just pulled a few quotes off of some website. That should be good enough to get the full picture, right?"

I disagree that one needs to read his biography in order to be able to critique his lyrics (and theology). While it may give one some insight, his songs should be open for critique based on their own merits (or lack of). What you're suggesting is that you need to read a biography on Tillich to critique his book of Systematic Theology, and that's just not the case.
 
I don't think anyone's speculating over his eternal condition. I think some people are simply stating that some of his songs are unhelpful. There's certainly an element of works-righteousness in some of his songs that is unbiblical. Asleep in the Light is actually another song where i think he's exhorting with the law and not the gospel.

I re-read the posts above and I realise I misread a comment that I thought was saying "I hope we see him in glory" !! But nevertheless I agree with the comments about some of his lyrics being awful. I didnt offer "Asleep in the light" as a defense either, just adding it to the list of ones I remembered from my childhood as my parents played his music a lot.

I certainly appreciate his sincere enthusiam, even though his words were sincerely wrong at times!

Regards,
Matt
 
Hi:

You Put This Love In My Heart (Lyrics)


I found it hard to believe someone like you cared for me,

You put this love in my heart.
I tried but could not refuse, you gave me no time to chose,
You put this love in my heart.


I want to know where the bad feelings go,
When I'm depressed and I get down so low,
And then I see you coming to me and it's alright.


I want to tell you right now, I'm not afraid to say how,
You put this love in my heart.
There are sometimes when I doubt, but you always find me out
You put this love in my heart.


Beause when I see all that you've done for me,
It's hard to doubt, I just have to believe,

Cause you followed and proved it all of your life.
Well I know the loneliness I had before,
Is gone now, I'll never feel it anymore,
Cause your love has released me from all that's in my past,
And I know I can believe you,

When you say I'll never be forsaken, Your love is gonna last.
There's so much more I should say, if I could just find a way,
You put this love in my heart,

Is this real or a dream, I feel so good I could scream,
You put this love in my heart.


I want to know where the bad feelings go,
When I'm depressed and I get down so low,
And then I see you coming to me and it's alright,
I am an Exclusive Psalmist, but this does not preclude me from enjoying Christian music in non-Worship settings. If I were to listen to Contemporary Christian Music, then Keith Green would be among my top picks.

Pastor Winzer is correct in pointing out the bad Theology in many of Keith Green's lyrics. However, I cannot find fault with all of them - especially the song cited above. Here is the video:

[video=youtube;x0nUizWjaFM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0nUizWjaFM[/video]



Another similar song:

Your Love Broke Through (Lyrics)

Like a foolish dreamer, trying to build a highway to the sky,
All my hopes would come tumbling down, and I never knew just why,
Until today, when you pulled away the clouds that hung like curtains on my eyes,
Well I've been blind all these wasted years and I though I was so wise,
But then you took me by surprise.

Like waking up from the longest dream, how real it seemed,
until your love broke through,
I've been lost in a fantasy, that blinded me,
Until your love broke through.

All my life I've been searching for that crazy missing part,
And with one touch, you just rolled away the stone that held my heart,
And now I see that the answer was as easy, as just asking you in,
And I am so sure I could never doubt your gentle touch again,
It's like the power of the wind.


Like waking up from the longest dream, how real it seemed,
until your love broke through,
I've been lost in a fantasy, that blinded me,
Until your love, until your love, broke through
Before one jumps over the phrase, "as just asking you in" this statement is given after, "And with one touch you just rolled away the stone that was in my heart.."

Keith Green has accurately described Regeneration "rolling away the stone that was in my heart" with Conversaion, "as just asking you in."

Video:

[video=youtube;h89-3_kIRDA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h89-3_kIRDA[/video]

Another one:

Rushing Wind (Lyrics)

Rushing wind blow through this temple,
Blowing out the dust within,
Come and breathe your breath upon me,
I've been born again.

Holy Spirit, I surrender, take me where you want to go,
Plant me by your living water,
Plant me deep so I can grow.


Jesus, you’re the one, who sets my spirit free,
Use me Lord, glorify, your Holy Name through me.


Separate me from this world Lord.
Sanctify my life for you.
Daily change me to your image,
Help me bear good fruit.


Every day you're drawing closer.
Trials come to test my faith.
But when all is said and done Lord,
You know, it was worth the wait.


Jesus, you’re the one, who set my spirit free,
Use me Lord, glorify, your Holy Name through me.

Rushing wind blow through this temple,
Blowing out the dust within,
Come and breathe your breath upon me,
For I've been born again
Video:

[video=youtube;Sk7w4y_9B2k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk7w4y_9B2k[/video]

Is this not an accurate description of being Born Again?

"Blow out the dust (sin) within me"

Do not all Christians want the following:

"Separate me from this world Lord.
Sanctify my life for you.
Daily change me to your image,
Help me bear good fruit."


- Just my :2cents:

Blessings,

Rob
 
Holy Spirit, I surrender, take me where you want to go,

Is this not an accurate description of being Born Again?

No, this is surrender salvation. Wesley's heart strangely warmed. Finney's decisional regeneration. The higher life's let go and let God. Sentimentalism's what matters is how you feel.

Hello Pastor:

"Holy Spirit, I surrender, take me where you want to go"

Comes after this:

"Rushing wind blow through this temple,
Blowing out the dust within,
Come and breathe your breath upon me,
I've been born again."

Keith Green is standing on sound Orthodoxy: We surrender to the Spirit after being Born Again.

Blessings,

Rob
 
I noticed these lines in a Keith Green song posted above:

"And with one touch, you just rolled away the stone that held my heart,
And now I see that the answer was as easy, as just asking you in,"

I don't like this kind of allegorizing, ie - `you just rolled away the stone that held my heart'. Jesus rolled away the stone at the tomb, let's leave it at that, instead of talking about rolling away the stone in our hearts. There are many examples where people loosely allegorise Biblical events; I guess I would prefer a `redemptive-historical approach". Otherwise, you end up with preachers talking about `crossing the Red Seas in your life', `slaying the Goliath's we face every day', etc etc. I recently heard an irritating sermon about the loaves and fishes miracle, which squashed that event into an imperative to give tithes etc because God will build a large church from our small offerings and sacrifices... in the sermon, the minister focussed on the generosity of the people giving up their meagre food provisions, instead of seeing it as a manifestation of Jesus' miraculous power and sovereignty. I don't recall the gospel account even hinting at the importance of the people that originally possessed the loaves and fishes.

Sorry, I'm going a bit off topic here... I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make though.
 
Keith Green is standing on sound Orthodoxy: We surrender to the Spirit after being Born Again.

I suppose, then, that one can make the words of a song mean whatever one pleases. If one is inclined to endorse such a ministry as orthodox, and freely open the gate for the sheep to wander into this pasture, laden as it is with all kinds of noxious weeds, then that person can answer to the Chief Shepherd. Obviously all that really matters to the contemporary "reformed" world is how the music makes one "feel." As one who loves the truth of holy Scripture it makes me feel sick.
 
I also find all this love, love, lovey dovey stuff a bit hard to handle, the effeminacy of the Jesus movement trend is very hard to swallow; so many worship songs from then (and of course this is even more a problem now) can be very difficult for men to sing comfortably. In fact, everything about Keith Green really irritates me! Sorry to the people that like him so much.... I'd much prefer a stately old hymn (however many hymns suffer from flowery language.

On another matter, I think Keith Green also has a terrible singing voice, and his song-writing (melodies, song-structure, style etc) is extremely sloppy and un-inspired. It's interesting to note that the only real lasting legacy of his work is `There is a Redeemer', which you may not realise was actually written by Melody Green, his wife (she wrote the words and the music). This is about the only `Green' song that is well-structured, memorable and in its simple arrangement it is suitable for a congregation to sing corporately, whereas most of his stuff is so convoluted and badly in need of musical editing.
 
Keith Green is standing on sound Orthodoxy: We surrender to the Spirit after being Born Again.

I suppose, then, that one can make the words of a song mean whatever one pleases. If one is inclined to endorse such a ministry as orthodox, and freely open the gate for the sheep to wander into this pasture, laden as it is with all kinds of noxious weeds, then that person can answer to the Chief Shepherd. Obviously all that really matters to the contemporary "reformed" world is how the music makes one "feel." As one who loves the truth of holy Scripture it makes me feel sick.

Greetings Pastor:

I hope I was careful enough to point out that I do not endorse all of Keith Green's lyrics. Many of them, as you have pointed out, miss the mark of orthodox teaching. However, I also do not wish to entirely condemn his lyrics either - since there is sound orthodoxy in some of them.

I also agree with you that we should not be twisting his lyrics in order to fit a preconceived mould of our own making. I am looking at his words as he has written them, but I do not think you can say the same for yourself. For example:

Green has spoken about surrendering to the Spirit after the Born Again experience. You seem to find error here, but it is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

You have criticized Green because of this statement, but you have not read him in the context of his writings. If you are to criticize him, and there is much to criticize, then I would implore you to do so within the context of what he is saying in light of the Biblical Revelation. Such would be instructive for all of us.

As far as Keith Green's musical "style" is concerned. No, he does not have the voice of a Robert Plant, or a Pavarotti, but he does sing from his heart. In my humble opinion it is better to sing from the heart, than to be a great singer and not have one's heart engaged. In an old church I once attended I stood next to a man who was tone deaf, but I could hear his heart singing to God. It was more of a blessing than a person with perfect pitch and who was proud of it.

Keith Green's music may not be the best. It may not soar like Handel's Messiah, but he is placing his best before the Lord. I cannot fault him for doing such a thing.

I wonder how you all would pastorally deal with a young convert who obviously likes Keith Green's music, and asked for your opinion. Would you crush his enthusiasm with weighty arguments against Green's apparent errors? Or, would you point out that there is some good and bad features in his words, and show the convert how to exercise spiritual discernment in evaluating Green's lyrics according to the Biblical Revelation?

Grace By Which I Stand (Lyrics)

Lord, the feelings are not the same,
I guess I'm older, I guess I've changed.
And how I wish it had been explained,
that as you're growing you must remember,
That nothing lasts, except the grace of God, by which I stand, in Jesus.
I know that I would surely fall away, except for grace, by which I'm saved.

Lord, I remember that special way,
I vowed to serve you, when it was brand new.
But like Peter, I can't even watch and pray, one hour with you,
And I bet, I could deny you too.
But nothing lasts, except the grace of God, by which I stand, in Jesus.

I'm sure that my whole life would waste away,
except for grace, by which I'm saved.
But nothing lasts, except the grace of God, by which I stand, in Jesus.
I know that I would surely fall away, except for grace, by which I'm saved
Blessings,

Rob
 
I also find all this love, love, lovey dovey stuff a bit hard to handle, the effeminacy of the Jesus movement trend is very hard to swallow; so many worship songs from then (and of course this is even more a problem now) can be very difficult for men to sing comfortably.

Exactly. One think I don't miss about my last church are those songs treating Christ like a physical lover.
 
Thanks Rob for saying a lot of things I was going to say. Yes, KG's lyrics are all over the map. He was influenced by Finney and another perfectionist guy that I can't remember the name of. I have read a lot on KG and we used to get his newsletter when I was young. I would not recommend his music to people without sound doctrine because he was all over the map doctrinally. If you know any of his history he drove everyone around him nuts because of his zeal and because he couldn't understand why everyone didn't feel the way he did. He was like a calvinist in the cage stage. I think he was a true convert amongst goats. He clearly loved God and hated his sin and gave God the glory for his conversion. A lot of the arminian sounding stuff is confusion he had because he needed to learn the differences between the indicative and the imperative passages of the Scriptures. I think the only reason he gets it right as many times as he does because he was truly regenerated and obviously read the Scriptures profusely. He uses tons of scripture in his songs.

He was unique, I do not countenance ANY other contemporary Christian music at all. I only identify with the his music because of the Romans 7 struggle that all Christians have and that I have. It comforts me. Maybe I am just nostalgic but I don't think so because I am not nostalgic at all for anything else in my Charismatic past. I think I see a kindred spirit in Christ struggling with the now and the not yet.
 
Brothers, if you want to pick the man apart, his ministry, and his music, go ahead, that is your business. But this thread was NOT started to serve you and your criticisms. You want to take his songs and pick them and the man apart? Start your own thread. I won't even get involved.

The most bothersome thing is that you appear to be so arrogant by telling us things that we already know. If we were all theologically weak like Keith's songs, we would not be on the PB! I do not need you to correct my theology, and I doubt the others need it. I have listened to Keith Green my entire life, and yet here I am, a regular posting member of the PB, and not banned yet. Apparently I can hold my own, with the grace of God, and filter out the wrong from the right. You do not have to tell me where he is wrong and why he is wrong.
 
Exactly. One think I don't miss about my last church are those songs treating Christ like a physical lover.

Very good point there Tim! I am completely over that whole leaning in worship music. I think it would be particularly uncomfortable for non-Christian men who would never want to visit that kind of church again. I guess that's why a lot of churches these days are mostly filled with women.
 
Ian, brother, I know things are very tough for you right now, and I've been praying for you. And I can understand why KG would be of some comfort to you. I didn't mean to pick the guy apart, but I understand also why some people would see a need to. I have a hard time listening to Keith, because his music meant so very much to me way back when. Those songs stir up memories that are fond on some level, but on another emblematic of my own past error and squandering of time in false religion. I do believe KG was being brought around to the truth at the end, but one problem with having as much zeal as he did while not yet mature in understanding is that any error can be glaring and detrimental to those who listen.

Maybe we shouldn't attach so much of the man's personage to the music, and filter out the more heterodox songs while enjoying those aren't blaringly off-base. We do that with Isaac Watts and Horatio Spafford, who both wrote beautiful songs but had some very wacky ideas. But KG actually presented himself as a teacher, and developed an entire ministry around a very Finneyite soteriology, publishing tracts and so forth that were very damaging to some of us, me included. So that may be why its harder to do.

I was a California hippie christian at the time he was putting out albums, even considered moving to Texas with his group when they moved to a property very close to my Mom's home town. I can see that if all you ever heard was his music and had no involvement with his ministry it all may seem very overboard for folks to pick his theology apart, some of it can be very edifying. But if you had, you might have a different view, and I think that's what's behind the criticism.

Enjoy the music, I'm sure it will have no ill effect on you, but maybe lurkers need to be warned about the pitfalls, and I think that's been done.

Anyway, my apologies for my part in bumming you out.

Hope things are working out, brother.
 
As far as Keith Green's musical "style" is concerned. No, he does not have the voice of a Robert Plant, or a Pavarotti, but he does sing from his heart. In my humble opinion it is better to sing from the heart, than to be a great singer and not have one's heart engaged. In an old church I once attended I stood next to a man who was tone deaf, but I could hear his heart singing to God. It was more of a blessing than a person with perfect pitch and who was proud of it.

Rob, there is a difference between the tone deaf man in the pews singing joyfully, and the same man releasing an album! (not saying KG is tone deaf).

I couldn't think of any musical artist who doesn't `sing from the heart', and in fact whether they really sang from the heart or not wouldn't matter much because it would be difficult to even tell! There is a danger I see in a lot of church worship where people are not critical enough, because since it's praise to God the important factor is `their heart'. Well, one person pouring out their heart with their guitar around their neck in front of the congregation will the following week be pouring out his heart in front of an empty church. Mind you, I'm not including KG with the woeful church musicians I have encountered over the years who everybody encouraged and so they thought they were wonderful which only made them get worse and worse.... but I'm rambling now.

When all those magnificent cathedrals were built, I'm sure they chose the best stonemasons, not the one who built `from the heart' and made the walls collapse, killing everyone inside! (Although if the music was terrible the cathedral would have been empty)
 
The most bothersome thing is that you appear to be so arrogant by telling us things that we already know.

"To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe," Phil. 3:1. It is not arrogance to warn the sheep against taking comfort from a song which seeks to ensnare the soul in works-righteousness. It would, however, be folly for a person to take offence at receiving Christian instruction he assumes he alreadys knows.
 
Green has spoken about surrendering to the Spirit after the Born Again experience. You seem to find error here, but it is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

He was referring to the so-called "second blessing" of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you should read some of those old newsletters before you recommend such poison.
 
Thankyou for filling me in on some of the history. My critique only pertains to the songs as presented. Are there any examples of post-grace songs?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MjE2yXJqvs]YouTube - Keith Green - Grace By Which I Stand[/ame]

I completely forgot about this one, and it's one of my favorites! Thanks, Kevin!

You're welcome Henry! Before I was Reformed I would listen to Keith's songs and almost feel "asleep in the Light!" When I listened to this one it calmed me. Keith was great. I believe that he walked in the light that he had. His change was so radical and his zeal so intense that he put many people to shame. I don't know the entire story but I can relate to him to some degree. I was very zealous as a Charismatic but I got tired of working myself. But I have no doubt that I was "as saved" then as I am now.
 
I wouldn't waste a moment trying to defend Keith's bad theology but I do hope everyone will take a look at these words...

"After striving for years to measure up to God's holiness, at times even questioning his own salvation, Keith came into a deeper understanding of the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross -- both to forgive his sins, and to clothe him in His righteousness. It was like a huge weight had been lifted off of his chest.


It wasn't that Keith became less concerned with purity and holiness. But now he was more motivated by love and less by fear in His pursuit of Jesus. He learned so much more about God’s grace and the importance of pausing simply to behold His glory and enjoy His presence. That is perhaps, what Keith loved most."

(From the following url)

Last Days Ministries : Bio
 
I have a book of Keith Green's Journals. There might be some things in there to shed some light from his own pen regarding his shift in his thinking regarding the Gospel. I was big into KG about 15 years ago or so. I have a book of several of his messages, a pair of videos called "What's wrong with the Gospel", most of his CD's, piano music for his songs, etc... It's been a long time since I've visited any of that stuff, having found reformed theology since. It should be an interesting skim.
 
I have a book of Keith Green's Journals. There might be some things in there to shed some light from his own pen regarding his shift in his thinking regarding the Gospel. I was big into KG about 15 years ago or so. I have a book of several of his messages, a pair of videos called "What's wrong with the Gospel", most of his CD's, piano music for his songs, etc... It's been a long time since I've visited any of that stuff, having found reformed theology since. It should be an interesting skim.

:popcorn:
 
Well, I read his journals for the last 6 months of his life basically, and there wasn't much there in view of the reformation type of Gospel. That's not to say that he didn't have any changes happening to him either, it's just that he did not seem to write much in that direction in the latter part of his life while recording that last album. But, the last album speaks for itself in many ways, I'm sure, as it is one that reflects much more of the gospel and less law.

But, here are some excerpts from his journals from his last 6 months:

Jan. 17, 1982 - "My prayer life is, as usual, very weak. My desires, as usual, are still lofty. It all seems like an endless merry-go-round. Yet I know there's an end to it all - death and judgment. If I were judged right now, I would be judged a failure in my eyes - masquerading as a great man of God, running a great ministry. Yes, I have found much approval in men's eyes, but what about God's eyes? It seems He accepts me and loves me! I know He is not impressed with my works any more than He was with Solomon's. But I think He likes my heart. And if I will be judged on the motive and intent of my heart, then I'm okay. For out of a good heart must come good fruit. O Lord help me accept myself as I am. Or help me change. I can't stand being this way and hating myself. I am so unhappy and uncontrolled!

Jan. 20, 1982 - "Last night I spent about two hours with Dave Wilkerson and he shared his burden for me not to lose my 'prophetic calling' and not to lose sight of the vision for revival worldwide. It was an inspiring talk and I was touched by the Holy Ghost. Lord Jesus, I'm so grateful for all you've promised and all you are doing for us. I am so tired of being the center of attention. I truly want You to be the center of attention."

Jan. 28, 1982 - "Leonard Ravenhill had a stroke last night. He couldn't talk or write for three hours. We're praying for him."

Feb. 10, 1982 - "Somehow I feel that it would be more pleasing to God if I wasn't 'doing my duty' at all, but I was madly in love with HIm, constantly praying to Him and living off His Word. In fact I know this to be true, but I can't seem to 'give up' my 'devotional life'. I am afraid that my soulish flesh will just take advantage of my leap of faith and turn meinto a Word-less, prayer-less monster! Please answer my questioning heart on this subject Lord Jesus. I wnt to know what pleases You and do it!

April, 12, 1982 - "One thing that I asked God for in prayer time was His heart. That's the only thing I needed from Him. The only thing. I told Him HE could have everything else, I'd turn over everything to Him if He'd just give me His Heart. Well that night's concert was one of the best I've ever had. The Word of God flowed out of my mouth in the smoothest way ever. I worshiped God and it didn't matter that therer were even people there - it was God that I wanted to impress a d bless and that's ALL!

May 3, 1982 - "I listened to the new 'Songs for the Shepherd' album adn I wept adn wept, as I heard what the Lord did on it. The songs' anointing as so powerful and they ministered to me in a way that none of my other albums ever could..."

May 5, 1982 - " I'm really trying to 'buffet my body' so that I may be found ready when the Lord returns for me in His glory."

May 9, 1982 - "I got up at about 9:30 this morning and decided to try out church, so I went. Mel went with me and it was truly boring as usual. I just don't understand how people continue to go week after week! I don't want to be negative, but it just doesn't seem right. Church should be the ost exciting time of the week, and the most exciting place on earth to believers!

June 23, 1982 - "First of all I want to thank You for helping me get control of my mouth and stomach. I pray that You would help mem get down to 170 pounds adn stay there finally! That would be such a blessing.
Melody wrote a song called 'Open Your Eyes', which really is beautiful and can be used on the 'Who Cares' rock project. We also wrote a song together a few days ago called 'Jesus Commands Us to Go!' which is very exciting for me.

July 8, 1982 - "The computers have been down for almost 10 days, but I was in L.A. for about a week of that time. The time there was precious, mainly because of the time we spent with different people like Loren Cunningham and Ralph Winter. WE also saw lots of friends......

July 11, 1982 - "Today I'm going to take the kids swimming at YWAM lake. They need a nice day with their daddy. Thank you for these precious kiddies, Jesus. I have so much.

July 22, 1982 - "We went to that YWAM camp at Colorado and had a great time. The family and I caught about 120 trout. We had some good fellowship and I can definitely say that I had my vacation. We left for there on Monday and came back late Friday night. Since than we ahve found out that Melody is pregnant! Thank you Father, I truly pray this child is healthy! Well, all in all things are going extremely well. God is truly wathcing out for us in every way. People are coming to joing us and finances are holding their own, and our family is doing very well. Please help us in teh weeks ahead to keep our priorities straight. We need to have a continual touch from You."

July 28, 1982 - (From Melody) "John and DeDe Smalley arrived. They had promised their six children an airplane ride. Keith took Josiah and Bethany along, and 20 seconds after takeoff the plane crashed and exploded on impact. Everyone on board went to be with Jesus, including Don Burmeister, the minister pilot."
 
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