Kline's framework hypothesis?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Days 1 and 4 describe the same event, from different perspectives. Day 7 never ends, see Hebrews 4 i believe? Indicating a non literal, again whatever that means, perspectival take in human words on what happened. And no neither Kline nor I affirm theistic evolution. Practicality speaking we don't have to argue with scientists anymore about that, and only that.
 
The Lord Jesus Himself affirmed its historical truth to us.
Ok, where? But more importantly how does FH deny historical truth? My real problem is with a literal, whatever that means, verses a mythological, again whatever that means, hermeneutics? How does not taking Genesis 1 and 2 as a complete picture but containing facts be bad?
 
For clarification I reject the dichotomy between literal and mythology, like those are our only two choices. Think about any good history book you've read, they are a mixture of fact and perspective, usually in a good literary style. Hopefully.
 
The scriptures are the inspired revelation from God to us, so any so called scientific fact has to be in agreement with the scriptures, and the literal 6 days of Genesis, Adam and Eve a special creation of God, that he created all life and did not need to use any evolutionary process, and that there was a real fall event would have to be included in any scientific facts.
What happened was that some saw evolution as being proven true, and so had to accommodate the Bible to fit that view, and not having science forced to agree with the scriptures themselves.

The whole point of what I'm saying is that, yes, what is learned from science must be in agreement with what is revealed in Scripture. But as is often the case with theology, there is not just one way to err. Those who deny the truth of Scripture in order to embrace the current theories of science surely make a grave error. But it is also an error (though probably not as serious) to overreact and defensively discard any insight whatsoever from scientific study. Christians, precisely because we know God has created an orderly world that declares his glory, should be eager scientists.

We should be careful never to buy into the secular storyline that religion and science are enemies and that the Bible and science disagree. I admit it's easy, when we see people mocking the Bible as worthless in an age of modern science, to respond by turning around and saying science is worthless. But if we do this we are embracing their storyline, not the Bible's. I understand the importance of not giving ground on the truth of Scripture. But in the process we should not forget what the Bible says about general revelation: observed rightly, it can help us understand and appreciate some things about God.

So if I see a scholar trying to take both the Bible and science seriously, I appreciate the effort and applaud his purpose, even if I end up doubting that the solution he reached is the correct solution.

As for the premise that the created world cannot possibly tell us anything about the creation process, I have a difficult time squaring that with Romans 1:19f. That premise feels like an argument designed to discredit the very idea of science, which only feeds the secular storyline.
 
The whole point of what I'm saying is that, yes, what is learned from science must be in agreement with what is revealed in Scripture. But as is often the case with theology, there is not just one way to err. Those who deny the truth of Scripture in order to embrace the current theories of science surely make a grave error. But it is also an error (though probably not as serious) to overreact and defensively discard any insight whatsoever from scientific study. Christians, precisely because we know God has created an orderly world that declares his glory, should be eager scientists.

We should be careful never to buy into the secular storyline that religion and science are enemies and that the Bible and science disagree. I admit it's easy, when we see people mocking the Bible as worthless in an age of modern science, to respond by turning around and saying science is worthless. But if we do this we are embracing their storyline, not the Bible's. I understand the importance of not giving ground on the truth of Scripture. But in the process we should not forget what the Bible says about general revelation: observed rightly, it can help us understand and appreciate some things about God.

So if I see a scholar trying to take both the Bible and science seriously, I appreciate the effort and applaud his purpose, even if I end up doubting that the solution he reached is the correct solution.

As for the premise that the created world cannot possibly tell us anything about the creation process, I have a difficult time squaring that with Romans 1:19f. That premise feels like an argument designed to discredit the very idea of science, which only feeds the secular storyline.
I agree with your premise here, as true science will always agree with the scriptures, and was reacting towards those who would try to have evolution and scriptures co exist together, and those who see Adam as part of an evolutionary process, and not a true literal fall happening.
 
As for the premise that the created world cannot possibly tell us anything about the creation process, I have a difficult time squaring that with Romans 1:19f. That premise feels like an argument designed to discredit the very idea of science, which only feeds the secular storyline.
But the premise doesn't do that. It only explores the natural limitations of empirical scientific methodology that the study of ordinary processes cannot tell us about extraordinary processes; and even if it could, there is not enough data to do anything more than speculate. I gave an example of such limitations with regards to starlight. Perhaps you have a specific example in mind that explains what you mean by scientific methodology being able to tell us about the miraculous creation process (since this in part depends on what one means by "science" and "tell")? Or perhaps you could take the example of water turning into wine; what would science be able to tell us about that extraordinary process, aside from how it must have been before and what it must have been afterwards?
 
I agree with your premise here, as true science will always agree with the scriptures, and was reacting towards those who would try to have evolution and scriptures co exist together, and those who see Adam as part of an evolutionary process, and not a true literal fall happening.

That's fair enough. I guess I see a thread where nobody is arguing in favor of what you describe, discussing an eminent Reformed scholar who doesn't advocate for those beliefs either, and still folks jump in as if somebody were taking the man-created-by-evolution side. I understand "slippery slope" worries, but I still would enjoy a thread where they didn't take over. And having recently had a sad interaction with a young person whose honest scientific questions were summarily dismissed by Christians who got alarmed just because those questions were based on science, I'm feeling a need to affirm that Christians can be good scientists. In fact, the best scientists.

But the premise doesn't do that. It only explores the natural limitations of empirical scientific methodology that the study of ordinary processes cannot tell us about extraordinary processes; and even if it could, there is not enough data to do anything more than speculate. I gave an example of such limitations with regards to starlight. Perhaps you have a specific example in mind that explains what you mean by scientific methodology being able to tell us about the miraculous creation process (since this in part depends on what one means by "science" and "tell")?

Oh, clearly general revelation ("science") is limited in the things it can tell us. So is Scripture, by the way. I can't tell you from Scripture how many different species God created. But when my science shows me the number of species, and I couple that with Scripture which tells me God created each one by the power of his word, I gain an appreciation for the magnificence of creation that I could not attain from either the Bible or science alone.

So when my Bible reading suggests the earth is young, and my science suggests the earth is old (to use a current-day conundrum), my instinct is not only to affirm the Bible but also to try to reconcile the two if possible. I realize it's most likely that my science is in error or has failed to consider a number of factors described in Genesis, but it is not wrong to also ask if I am reading Scripture correctly. In the end, it may well be that the answer is as simple as the fact that creation is such an extraordinary, miraculous event that no amount of general-revelation study will ever be able to shed light on the timing of it. But that is an end point, not the beginning. A scholar who honestly examines both his understanding of Scripture and his understanding of general revelation, in the belief that God gave both, should not be maligned for asking good questions in the first place.

In the specific case of the age of the earth, the main reason the issue matters at all is because many secular scientists have pronounced an answer without considering the Bible, and this attacks the trustworthiness of God's Word. As long as Christian scholars give answers that do attempt to honor the trustworthiness of the Bible, the key issue has been addressed and I'm reasonably happy.

The earth's age itself is not the key issue. It is of little concern in Genesis, which doesn't directly say anything one way or another. This matters. It gives us more room to consider the possibility that our initial reading of Scripture may need adjustments. Consider the report in Joshua 10 that the earth stood still. We might say, based on our general revelation knowledge, that we're pretty sure both the earth and sun are constantly in motion and that the passage probably means that the sun stood still relative to the position and rotation of the earth. In this example, we didn't just say, "It's a miracle so science can't tell us anything about it." Rather, we made a reasonable adjustment to our reading of the passage based on our scientific study. We might still be wrong. But the fact that the passage in Joshua is not trying to make a statement about planetary orbits, but rather a statement about God's miraculous responsiveness to his people's needs, means that I won't lose much sleep worrying that I might turn out to be wrong about exactly how God did this miracle. The fact that I affirm it is a miracle and a sign of God's help matters much more. In the same way, I'm pretty happy with any scholar who affirms the central things Genesis is concerned with and is convinced the Bible is true. Such a scholar got the main thing right.
 
That's fair enough. I guess I see a thread where nobody is arguing in favor of what you describe, discussing an eminent Reformed scholar who doesn't advocate for those beliefs either, and still folks jump in as if somebody were taking the man-created-by-evolution side. I understand "slippery slope" worries, but I still would enjoy a thread where they didn't take over. And having recently had a sad interaction with a young person whose honest scientific questions were summarily dismissed by Christians who got alarmed just because those questions were based on science, I'm feeling a need to affirm that Christians can be good scientists. In fact, the best scientists.



Oh, clearly general revelation ("science") is limited in the things it can tell us. So is Scripture, by the way. I can't tell you from Scripture how many different species God created. But when my science shows me the number of species, and I couple that with Scripture which tells me God created each one by the power of his word, I gain an appreciation for the magnificence of creation that I could not attain from either the Bible or science alone.

So when my Bible reading suggests the earth is young, and my science suggests the earth is old (to use a current-day conundrum), my instinct is not only to affirm the Bible but also to try to reconcile the two if possible. I realize it's most likely that my science is in error or has failed to consider a number of factors described in Genesis, but it is not wrong to also ask if I am reading Scripture correctly. In the end, it may well be that the answer is as simple as the fact that creation is such an extraordinary, miraculous event that no amount of general-revelation study will ever be able to shed light on the timing of it. But that is an end point, not the beginning. A scholar who honestly examines both his understanding of Scripture and his understanding of general revelation, in the belief that God gave both, should not be maligned for asking good questions in the first place.

In the specific case of the age of the earth, the main reason the issue matters at all is because many secular scientists have pronounced an answer without considering the Bible, and this attacks the trustworthiness of God's Word. As long as Christian scholars give answers that do attempt to honor the trustworthiness of the Bible, the key issue has been addressed and I'm reasonably happy.

The earth's age itself is not the key issue. It is of little concern in Genesis, which doesn't directly say anything one way or another. This matters. It gives us more room to consider the possibility that our initial reading of Scripture may need adjustments. Consider the report in Joshua 10 that the earth stood still. We might say, based on our general revelation knowledge, that we're pretty sure both the earth and sun are constantly in motion and that the passage probably means that the sun stood still relative to the position and rotation of the earth. In this example, we didn't just say, "It's a miracle so science can't tell us anything about it." Rather, we made a reasonable adjustment to our reading of the passage based on our scientific study. We might still be wrong. But the fact that the passage in Joshua is not trying to make a statement about planetary orbits, but rather a statement about God's miraculous responsiveness to his people's needs, means that I won't lose much sleep worrying that I might turn out to be wrong about exactly how God did this miracle. The fact that I affirm it is a miracle and a sign of God's help matters much more. In the same way, I'm pretty happy with any scholar who affirms the central things Genesis is concerned with and is convinced the Bible is true. Such a scholar got the main thing right.
Newton would agree with you that one can believe in God and be a true person of science, as many others have been, as I was not suggesting no science, but do not like it when we take as accepted unproven theories as factual, and that those view trump scripture.
 
Jack, thanks for explaining your view. I don't think the example you have given demonstrates that a study of ordinary providence allows one to understand extraordinary processes. By "process" is literally meant the process. How did the water turn into wine? How did God stop the sun from moving and start it again? How did God make the stars and coalesce the light into them?

In contrast, the example you have given,

We might say, based on our general revelation knowledge, that we're pretty sure both the earth and sun are constantly in motion and that the passage probably means that the sun stood still relative to the position and rotation of the earth. In this example, we didn't just say, "It's a miracle so science can't tell us anything about it." Rather, we made a reasonable adjustment to our reading of the passage based on our scientific study.
1) This is not understanding extraordinary processes by a study of ordinary processes (which is impossible by definition anyway). At best, this is understanding the objects of the extraordinary process better: understanding what the miracle was better. This corresponds to understanding what water and what wine are better.

2) Strictly speaking, we have not understood the Scripture teaching better by scientific study. The Scriptures say the sun stopped moving. It says nothing about the earth or anything else (well, the moon stopped too). None of that is in the text, so anything that one does further should not be viewed as the teaching of Scripture. The Scriptures teach the sun stopped. One may then try to understand what "the sun stopped" means in terms of a particular scientific model, but this is not understanding the text better: it is taking something from the text and filtering it through a scientific model. It is an abstraction from the text that at best could be used to help connect the world of then to the world of today when explaining the passage or considering the bearing its teaching has on what we know today. Describing this process of abstraction as an "adjustment to our reading of the passage" suggests that scientific study is being used to control the text's teaching and interpretation rather than historical-grammatical exegesis. While Maxwell was only sorry to see a conjectural hypothesis attached to the teaching of Scripture, I think his comments should be heeded more broadly.

With regards to the Creation period, science cannot do anything more than speculate because of the limited data (which I have shown with regards to starlight). Speculation has its uses, but the goal of science is knowledge and it is that which will elude it in this area. But a further consideration is that Creation is known by faith. Consider Wilhelmus a Brakel below.**


The concern you have raised about Christians dismissing science is a valid concern. It is also a valid concern that many Christians think too much of science--some ending up consumed by theistic evolutionary ideas. I don't agree that science is "general revelation" (it is not revealed; God reveals himself through nature, not the facts of science; and it is not generally accessible but if one disagrees on this quality of "general revelation," then at best scientific facts reveal something about God), and I don't think attributing some kind of divine authority to its claims is going to help matters (as some do). I think it would be more helpful if Christians viewed it as it is: a philosophical discipline, therefore having its uses but at the end of the day being but the claims of men. If scientific study was viewed within its proper limitations, I agree that Christians could engage in it to a full extent and attribute truth to it in accordance with its limitations (I quote Turretin below***). I will have to leave things there, since I have other stuff I have to do and this is getting more off topic from the thread (and I sincerely was just curious as to what you meant by science understanding extraordinary processes!).


**"God did not create the world from an infinite air mass, neither from indivisible elements, from an eternally formless mass of matter, nor from anything else, whatever name one would wish to attribute to it. This is a pagan fabrication derived from the fundamental principle: only nothing can come out of nothing. This is true in reference to the finite creature and natural forces, but not as far as the infinite and omnipotent God is concerned. He has brought forth everything out of nothing. The determining factor here is this “nothing,” and not the matter from which things were formed.

The apostle demonstrates this in Heb 11:3, where he states, “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” Natural reason teaches that by virtue of causal relationships one ultimately must come to God as the original cause of all things. Natural reason, however, cannot understand the “how”; that is, how something can come into existence out of nothing, how God with one word and with one single command has caused everything to come into existence. All this we accept by faith. By faith we also accept the order described by Moses, in which all things were brought forth." (Christian's Reasonable Service, p. 269-270)


***"VII. For a thing to be denied by philosophy is different from not being taught by it. We do not deny that various theological mysteries are not taught in philosophy, but it does not follow that they are denied by it because the limits of the two sciences must be kept distinct. The physician does not meddle with geometry, nor the lawyer with natural science. So philosophy should be kept within its proper bounds and not be allowed to thrust its pruning hook into a different field. Therefore, because it says nothing about the Trinity and the incarnation, we must not suppose that it denies these doctrines.

XIII. Although theology teaches many things which philosophy knows not, it does not follow that a thing may be false in philosophy which is true in theology because truth is not at variance with truth, nor is light opposed to light. But care must be taken that philosophical truths be not extended beyond their own sphere and the ordinary powers of nature to those things which are of supernatural revelation or power; that the physical be not confounded with the hyper-physical or human with divine things. For example, it is true in philosophy that a virgin cannot bring forth, that a heavy body is carried downwards, that fire burns matter placed in contact with it, that from nothing, nothing can come--the contraries of which theology maintains. But they are not on this account opposed to each other because these things are spoken of in different relations.... In philosophy, they are denied with reference to the laws of nature, but in theology they are affirmed with reference to divine omnipotence and supernaturally." (Institutes First Topic, Thirteenth Question)
 
Last edited:
Well, I'm afraid that was all a bit too deep for me (which is my fault, not yours). I still don't see what's the harm in saying, "The way I read that bit of Scripture doesn't seem to fit with what I see in the world, so one thing I should do is make double sure I'm reading the Scripture rightly." I do that sort of thing all the time. It seems like prudent and reasonable Scripture reading, and it's the only thing I really wish to defend in this thread.

And I don't see how bringing up theistic evolution or ex nihilo creation is helpful, since no one here is arguing against the traditional stances. But, oh well...
 
My apologies; I guess this shows that I still have to learn how to explain this subject better. Thanks for the discussion!

I still don't see what's the harm in saying, "The way I read that bit of Scripture doesn't seem to fit with what I see in the world, so one thing I should do is make double sure I'm reading the Scripture rightly." I do that sort of thing all the time. It seems like prudent and reasonable Scripture reading, and it's the only thing I really wish to defend in this thread.
Yes, I see no harm in that, so long, of course, that the Scriptures are interpreted in the usual exegetical manner (which I'm sure you acknowledge; I'm just explicitly putting the qualifier there). I might disagree on how often one needs to do it when challenged by scientific claims, but I see nothing wrong with doing so.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I see no harm in that, so long, of course, that the Scriptures are interpreted in the usual exegetical manner (which I'm sure you acknowledge; I'm just explicitly putting the qualifier there). I would probably disagree on how often one needs to do it when challenged by scientific claims, but I see nothing wrong with doing so in and of itself.

And depending on the clarity of the passage and how directly it addresses the matter in question, I may allow what I see in the world to give me more or less doubt about whether my initial reading of the passage is correct. But that's all part of "the usual exegetical manner," in my mind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top