Lawful ordination

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Matt,
I just recalled one;:book2: still 19th century. Have you checked out any of the Works of Thomas Smyth? Not my favorite given his advocacy of musical instruments and hymns in public worship, but he did write 500 plus pages on the subject of Apostolical Succession.;) Also his Ecclesiastical Republicanism and Presbytery and Prelacy may be useful.
 
More specifically here is the biblio data:
Lectures on the Apostolical Succession Complete Works of Rev. Thomas Smyth, D.D., Volume 1 (Columbia: Reprinted by The R. L. Bryan Company, 1908).
Presbytery and Prelacy, Works Volume 2.
Ecclesiastical Republicanism, v.3.1-216.
 
a few wrenchs thrown in the works:

Is succession necessary for a church to be a true church?

If a church (denomination or local assembly) recognises ordinations that do not follow a line of succession, ten should that churches ordination be viewed as valid?

If the ordinances can only be administered and the Word only preached by lawfully ordained men, and we have to prove succession to prove the lawful part, then everybody needs to sit down, shut up, quit preaching, and certainly no one should administer the Lord's Supper or dare to baptize anyone.

Bottom Line: If succession is necessary for a church to be true and its elders to be rightly and lawfully ordained and the gospel preached and the ordinances administered, then there is no visible church on the earth.

That means nothing less than that Christ has failed to build His church
.

Phillip
 
Phillip,

Assuming succession is required and there is no succession that wouldn't mean there isnt a visible church (the visible church is professing believers and children), it would mean the church has no government. Also, it wouldn't mean Christ has failed b/c we know he is presently ruling the government of the world. But even this is an impossibility becuase Christ has promised to be with his officers always Mt 28.


If the ordinances can only be administered and the Word only preached by lawfully ordained men, and we have to prove succession to prove the lawful part, then everybody needs to sit down, shut up, quit preaching, and certainly no one should administer the Lord's Supper or dare to baptize anyone.

Only if you leap to the conclusion no church (denom., congregation) can reasonably demonstrate succession.

[Edited on 8-16-2005 by Peter]
 
The succession of the ministry is not of necessity in a physical line, but in true doctrine; in the true gospel. Not original; I got that from Rutherford, I think. That was the basis of Knox's ministry.
 
If succession is necessary for a church to be true and its elders to be rightly and lawfully ordained and the gospel preached and the ordinances administered, then there is no visible church on the earth.

That would depend on your "church". I can trace the history of the PCA, OPC, BPC, RPCNA, RPCGA, for example, straight back to the Reformation, and from Scottish Presbyterianism. The PCA even has a nifty little chart on their site of this in the historical center. There were breaks and apostasies here and there, and there were mergers, but in studying the succession, I don't see the break unless the information is wrong altogether.

Now an independent scheme, by necessity, doesn't have succession. IT would be practically impossible since each individual church is a stand alone church and not part of a unified whole, except in matter of doctrine which could change by a vote of the congregation (and have for many churches through American History, especially in colonial America and then the Enlightenment).
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Fred,
There is a difference between 'witnessing or testifying' and actual lawful calls to preach Gods word. I don't believe R10 is applicable to the layman.

(KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Where can I see passages that apply the word 'preach' to the layman?


Acts 8
1And Saul was there, giving approval to his death.

The Church Persecuted and Scattered
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
Philip in Samaria
4Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went.

Scott,

Would not "those who had been scattered" include laymen?

Larry

[Edited on 8-17-2005 by LarryCook]
 
Originally posted by LarryCook
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Fred,
There is a difference between 'witnessing or testifying' and actual lawful calls to preach Gods word. I don't believe R10 is applicable to the layman.

(KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Where can I see passages that apply the word 'preach' to the layman?


Acts 8
1And Saul was there, giving approval to his death.

The Church Persecuted and Scattered
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
Philip in Samaria
4Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went.

Scott,

Would not "those who had been scattered" include laymen?

Larry

[Edited on 8-17-2005 by LarryCook]

Larry,

I think Matthew Henry's comments on this passage are helpful:

They were all scattered abroad (v. 1), not all the believers, but all the preachers, who were principally struck at, and against whom warrants were issued out to take them up.
 
Originally posted by webmaster
If succession is necessary for a church to be true and its elders to be rightly and lawfully ordained and the gospel preached and the ordinances administered, then there is no visible church on the earth.

That would depend on your "church". I can trace the history of the PCA, OPC, BPC, RPCNA, RPCGA, for example, straight back to the Reformation, and from Scottish Presbyterianism.

Can you trace their histories all the way back to the apostles?

I have heard that it is difficult to determine a line of ordination from the apostles to the early Roman Catholic church. However, I confess I have not studied enough to know whether or not this is true.
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by webmaster
If succession is necessary for a church to be true and its elders to be rightly and lawfully ordained and the gospel preached and the ordinances administered, then there is no visible church on the earth.

That would depend on your "church". I can trace the history of the PCA, OPC, BPC, RPCNA, RPCGA, for example, straight back to the Reformation, and from Scottish Presbyterianism.

Can you trace their histories all the way back to the apostles?

I have heard that it is difficult to determine a line of ordination from the apostles to the early Roman Catholic church. However, I confess I have not studied enough to know whether or not this is true.

Lets just say for the sake of this conversation that it is possible; what would the ramifications be?
 
Joseph,

The "blurr" is not from the apostles to the 14th century, but from the Reformation / Roman controversies through to today with so many Protestant Divisions. For example, click this link. Look at the divisions just in the Presbyterian Church in America over the last 200 years.
 
Originally posted by webmaster
Joseph,

The "blurr" is not from the apostles to the 14th century, but from the Reformation / Roman controversies through to today with so many Protestant Divisions. For example, click this link. Look at the divisions just in the Presbyterian Church in America over the last 200 years.

Matt, thank you for the info.

Just because it would be interesting, I would like to see a progression of ordination from the apostles to the PCA church. I don't doubt what you're telling me. I would just enjoy seeing it, like I enjoyed seeing that Presbyterian chart you just posted. That chart looks like spaghetti! :bigsmile:
 
Larry,

I think Matthew Henry's comments on this passage are helpful:

They were all scattered abroad (v. 1), not all the believers, but all the preachers, who were principally struck at, and against whom warrants were issued out to take them up.

Soldiers of the Cross!
Spurgeon -- All at it

Bible Reference: Acts - 8:4, 5, 35

Scarcely anything has been more injurious to the kingdom of Christ than the distinction between clergy and laity. No such distinction was ever laid down by the Spirit of God. "You are a royal priesthood." "He has made us unto our God kings and priests."
In the Church of God there is no special priesthood because all are priests.

We have made among ourselves a distinction between ministers and others. But you are all to minister! There are many ministries of one form and another; and though God gives to His Church apostles, teachers, pastors, evangelists, and the like, yet not by way of setting up a professional caste of men, who are to do the work for God while others sit still.

All Christians are soldiers of the Cross and all on active duty!

Every converted man is to teach what he knows.

All those who have drunk of the Living Water are to become fountains out of which shall flow rivers of Living Water. All are to proclaim the Word and no one is exempted by another form of service.

It is thought nowadays that a man must not try to proclaim the Gospel unless he has had a good education. But there is nothing whatever in the whole compass of Scripture to excuse any mouth from speaking for Jesus when the heart is really acquainted with His salvation.

We are all called to make Jesus known if we know Him.

We must come back to the pattern of the original church.

Every Christian must be a herald of the Cross.

If you do not tell the Gospel, you are leaving your fellow men to perish. Yonder is the wreck and you are not sending out a life boat! Yonder are souls starving and you give them no bread!

If we felt that blessed amazement which we ought to feel when we think of Free Grace and dying love, silence would be impossible.

Andrew,

Do we consider CHS a valid reformed thinker? His thoughts here are quite, for lack of a better word, extreme on this issue. Is he just simply "out in left field" on this one against current reformed theology? Another name I'd suggest thinks this way is RC Sproul (at least it seems that way to me).

This is an area of intense interest for me as I am struggling to discover to what extent and through what means I should be involved in telling others the good news of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for your response and also for the other times that you've helped me to understand things.

Larry
(ps. I was interrupted in composing this post by a traffic accident that I was called to respond to in my new position as an ems pilot, so pardon me if some of this post doesn't make sense in a sequential context)
 
Originally posted by LarryCook
Larry,

I think Matthew Henry's comments on this passage are helpful:

They were all scattered abroad (v. 1), not all the believers, but all the preachers, who were principally struck at, and against whom warrants were issued out to take them up.

Soldiers of the Cross!
Spurgeon -- All at it

Bible Reference: Acts - 8:4, 5, 35

Scarcely anything has been more injurious to the kingdom of Christ than the distinction between clergy and laity. No such distinction was ever laid down by the Spirit of God. "You are a royal priesthood." "He has made us unto our God kings and priests."
In the Church of God there is no special priesthood because all are priests.

We have made among ourselves a distinction between ministers and others. But you are all to minister! There are many ministries of one form and another; and though God gives to His Church apostles, teachers, pastors, evangelists, and the like, yet not by way of setting up a professional caste of men, who are to do the work for God while others sit still.

All Christians are soldiers of the Cross and all on active duty!

Every converted man is to teach what he knows.

All those who have drunk of the Living Water are to become fountains out of which shall flow rivers of Living Water. All are to proclaim the Word and no one is exempted by another form of service.

It is thought nowadays that a man must not try to proclaim the Gospel unless he has had a good education. But there is nothing whatever in the whole compass of Scripture to excuse any mouth from speaking for Jesus when the heart is really acquainted with His salvation.

We are all called to make Jesus known if we know Him.

We must come back to the pattern of the original church.

Every Christian must be a herald of the Cross.

If you do not tell the Gospel, you are leaving your fellow men to perish. Yonder is the wreck and you are not sending out a life boat! Yonder are souls starving and you give them no bread!

If we felt that blessed amazement which we ought to feel when we think of Free Grace and dying love, silence would be impossible.

Andrew,

Do we consider CHS a valid reformed thinker? His thoughts here are quite, for lack of a better word, extreme on this issue. Is he just simply "out in left field" on this one against current reformed theology? Another name I'd suggest thinks this way is RC Sproul (at least it seems that way to me).

This is an area of intense interest for me as I am struggling to discover to what extent and through what means I should be involved in telling others the good news of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for your response and also for the other times that you've helped me to understand things.

Larry
(ps. I was interrupted in composing this post by a traffic accident that I was called to respond to in my new position as an ems pilot, so pardon me if some of this post doesn't make sense in a sequential context)

Larry,

I have very high regard for Charles Spurgeon. However, without looking at the context of these remarks and reviewing what Spurgeon may have said on other occasions about the subject of ordination, I would have to say that I think he is missing an important aspect of Reformed thinking as to the distinction between the ordained and the laity. The Westminster Divines taught consistently in the Standards that all Christians can and should read the Scriptures, speak the truth in love, and testify to the gospel by deeds and words. However, they drew a sharp line in accord with the Scriptures as to duties and functions that were lawfully done by ordained officers vs. private individuals. Only the former may 1) preach 2) read the Scriptures in public worship 3) administer sacraments 4) exercise church discipline.

Besides the references cited previously, I think the Westminster Directory for Family Worship is also helpful:

III. As the charge and office of interpreting the holy scriptures is a part of the ministerial calling, which none (however otherwise qualified) should take upon him in any place, but he that is duly called thereunto by God and his kirk; so in every family where there is any that can read, the holy scriptures should be read ordinarily to the family; and it is commendable, that thereafter they confer, and by way of conference make some good use of what hath been read and heard. As, for example, if any sin be reproved in the word read, use may be made thereof to make all the family circumspect and watchful against the same; or if any judgment be threatened, or mentioned to have been inflicted, in that portion of scripture which is read, use may be made to make all the family fear lest the same or a worse judgment befall them, unless they beware of the sin that procured it: and, finally, if any duty be required, or comfort held forth in a promise, use may be made to stir up themselves to employ Christ for strength to enable them for doing the commanded duty, and to apply the offered comfort. In all which the master of the family is to have the chief hand; and any member of the family may propone a question or doubt for resolution.

Preaching is an ordinance of public worship, a means of grace, and is limited to those called by God (externally and internally) and qualified to perform the function. Women and children are by definition excluded from this function, as are unordained men (excepting those licensed/under care).

It is not as if the ordained are somehow morally superior to the laity. That is a Romanist error. But God does draw a distinction between those called to the office of minister and those who are not. Heb. 5.4: And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

When Scripture tells us that all believers constitute a royal priesthood it does not mean that the office and functions of ministry are given to all believers, thus essentially negating the office, but rather that we through Christ are separated unto God, a holy nation, enabled to offer spiritual sacrifices of obedience by faith which are well pleasing to Him.

Spurgeon noted the fact that different offices are given to the church but then goes on to say that there is no "professional caste" of ministers who are given work while the rest of the church can lounge around. Well, "professional caste" is not a phrase I would choose, but I do believe the ordination is a special consecration by God and the church reserved for those alone who are truly called to perform the appropriate tasks of the ministry. Yet, of course, that is not a license for the rest of us to sit down and remain aloof from that work. On the contrary, we all have the duty to pray for the work of the kingdom, live in accordance with the gospel, let our good works so shine before men that others will testify to the grace of God working in us, tithe and support the ministry by any and all lawful means. Yet, lawful means do not include assuming the unique duties and privileges of the office of the ministry of God's Word and sacraments.

I would emphasize, it is the duty of every Christian to be prepared to give an answer for the hope that lies within him (1 Peter 3.15). This is called testifying to the truth, which is done according to one's place and calling and circumstance.

Matthew Henry:

Thirdly, Every Christian is bound to answer and apologize for the hope that is in him. Christians should have a reason ready for their Christianity, that it may appear they are not actuated either by folly or fancy. This defence may be necessary more than once or twice, so that Christians should be always prepared to make it, either to the magistrate, if he demand it, or to any inquisitive Christian, who desires to know it for his information or improvement.

Many people mistakenly think that the Great Commission is a charge to all believers (laity and ordained) to go out and start preaching the gospel, when in fact the charge given by Christ in the Great Commission is specifically to those who are authorized to preach and baptize, ie., apostles and ministers. Brian Schwertley addresses this well in his article The Great Commission.
 
Andrew,

Thank you for the time that you took in composing your reply. I'm going to print out your post and take some time today to read it. In just skimming over it I think that it will be an extremely helpful starting point for me as I strive to gain a better understanding of reformed doctrine in this area.

thanks again,
Larry
 
D.G. Hart in an essay in his book Recovering Mother Kirk makes the point that presbyterian ministers have not been successful in defending their ministerial perogatives. It seems to me that many do not even really perceive that they have many (or even any), so it is no wonder that others don't. Hatch in his Democratization of Christianity traces the history of how ministers generally (not just presbyterians) have lost much of the respect and authority they had in earlier years. Much of the reason was the spread of egalitarianism. It seems to me the view that the formalities of ordination are unimportant as long as the person otherwise has good content is an outgrowth of this. This lack of concern certainly seems inconsistent with reformed theology, as expressed in the Westminster standards (Andrew posted a principal catechism question, but the issue is woven into many other places).

The issue is important because it relates to one way the unity of the visible church is expressed. While we may be in a bad situation b/c of the divisions in the church, we should at least aspire to unity. We should show the desire for unity that Hezekiah demonstrated over the division of Israel. See 1 Chron. 30.
 
thank you very much for this link:
Brian Schwertley addresses this well in his article The Great Commission.
http://www.reformed.com/pub/greatcomm.htm

i seldom printout essays anymore, that one was a necessary exception.

D.G. Hart in an essay in his book Recovering Mother Kirk makes the point that presbyterian ministers have not been successful in defending their ministerial perogatives.

i read his defending the faith, do you recommend Recovering Mother Kirk?

Hatch in his Democratization of Christianity traces the history of how ministers generally (not just presbyterians) have lost much of the respect and authority they had in earlier years. Much of the reason was the spread of egalitarianism.

i have read hatch and am looking for more references on equalitarianism esp. with respect to Dabney and the southern way of life. anything?

...
 
I do highly recommend Hart's Recovering Mother Kirk. Don't recall anything specifically about egalitarianism in the South or Dabney other than what Hatch had to say.
 
Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr
thank you very much for this link:
Brian Schwertley addresses this well in his article The Great Commission.
http://www.reformed.com/pub/greatcomm.htm

i seldom printout essays anymore, that one was a necessary exception.

D.G. Hart in an essay in his book Recovering Mother Kirk makes the point that presbyterian ministers have not been successful in defending their ministerial perogatives.

i read his defending the faith, do you recommend Recovering Mother Kirk?

Hatch in his Democratization of Christianity traces the history of how ministers generally (not just presbyterians) have lost much of the respect and authority they had in earlier years. Much of the reason was the spread of egalitarianism.

i have read hatch and am looking for more references on equalitarianism esp. with respect to Dabney and the southern way of life. anything?

...

I have heard good things about Kenneth Gentry's work on the great commission (and it was quoted quite favorable in the above linked article)
 
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