Lloyd Jones Eschatology

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Barney

Puritan Board Freshman
Has anyone listened to Martyn Lloyd Jones sermon on postmill and a spiritual interpretation of some parts of Revelation?
He seemingly doesn't ascribe to amill, premill, or postmill.
I'm not very academic whatever that means but I'm trying to study and think about Eschatology. My first and only experience was of premill when I watched "conspiracy" videos on YouTube when I first became a Christian and went to a Charismatic church. I've since abandoned that as well as speaking in tongues and am now reformed. The pastor at the church we attend is postmill. But I may try and convert him if Lloyd Jones view makes more scriptural sense. I'm now more postmill than premill.
 

Jeri Tanner

Administrator
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Welcome to the PB! I’m sure you’re going to get some great input to this question and we look forward to many years of getting to know you. As soon as possible please fix your signature according to PB guidelines (see the link below my signature). Again, welcome!
 

Christopher Robin

Puritan Board Freshman
I too came from a Charismatic background. For most of that time I assumed every Christian had the same view of the "end times" (Rapture, seven years of tribulation, Christ returns, sets up a literal, physical, political kingdom on Earth). Until late in my Charismatic sojourn, when a postmil kind of eschatology gained in popularity with "city churches" governed by modern-day "apostles" in what was called "Shepherding / Discipleship." Led by three "apostles," Don Basham, Derek Prince, and Bob Mumford, beginning in my hometown of Fort Lauderdale, Florida, this scheme blurred the lines between spiritual authority and domestic authority, becoming a cult of sorts. One can still find wounded sheep limping back into Fort Lauderdale and asking, "is it safe now?"

Their form of postmillennialism kinda sorta smacks of the same flavor that "Reformed" Theonomy does.
 

Barney

Puritan Board Freshman
Thank you both.
Christopher, it's nice to know others that have similar experiences. I found what you wrote interesting thanks.
I know of Derek Prince who I thought was English. Mumford I saw his name on a print off questionnaire to help you determine your charismatic giftings when I was at the charismatic church.
Our current pastor is seemingly reconstructionist. (Don't be too hard on him if it's very bad). I'd never heard of it till I met him, but I did a bit of research and it seemed a bit off beat to me. I'd welcome some opinion about that.
Where I live there isn't much choice at all for sound churches and he is fully reformed in other areas and preaches sound expository preaching.
So are you traditional postmill? How about Lloyd Jones take on Eschatology?
 

Stephen L Smith

Administrator
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I'll have to look up what a pessimistic amill is. Can you direct me to anything that he said or that makes you think that?
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Barney

Puritan Board Freshman
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NaphtaliPress

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Really sorry but can you walk me through the steps I need to do to do that? I've read it a few times and can't work it out.
Click on your username on the main navigation bar (on my screen, upper right next to the envelope and bell icons), click signature from the menu that appears, supply the information requested.
 

Christopher Robin

Puritan Board Freshman
I am Amillennial. Postmil has been nicknamed, "Optimistic Amillennialism," thus Amils are sometimes called "pessimistic." I think that's unfortunate, since both anticipate the Lord's return as a great victory. The difference is in what we Amils and Postmils expect the Lord to find on the Earth when He returns. Postmils teach that the Church, through the power of the gospel, will have subdued the culture and the Lord will return to find a glorious, triumphant Church enjoying a golden age of Christian influence on the entire culture of mankind. Amils expect the Lord to return and rescue a small, persecuted remnant in a culture dominated by pagans.

Recommended reading: The Last Days According to Jesus by Dr. R.C. Sproul
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
MLJ was certainly amillennial. That was not a big focus of his ministry, and I don't know that it would have been touched on in much detail in his major sermon series that I can think of offhand. He didn't preach through Revelation or the Olivet Discourse from what I recall. But I think he makes his view clear in his "Great Doctrines" series. I saw him recommend W.J. Grier's little amillennial book "The Momentous Event" somewhere or the other.

That being said, one fascinating anecdote is from an interview that Carl F.H. Henry conducted with MLJ toward the end of the latter's life. Henry was asking questions about cultural engagement and (according to Russell Moore in his "Kingdom of Christ") used some of the arguments from his "Uneasy Conscience of Modern Fundamentalism." (MLJ was well known for eschewing political involvement.) MLJ's views on political involvement weren't all that different than the dispensationalists who said that we shouldn't polish the brass on a sinking ship. He added that the fact that the Jews had regained control of Jerusalem in 1967 was a sign of the end, all the more reason not to be distracted by politics. Now, that's not an argument that you will hear an amillennialist make every day. But it does demonstrate that from a cultural or practical standpoint, some amils aren't a whole lot different than dispensationalists. Some in both camps will emphasize that we are hard pressed to find some kind of moral crusade in the ministries of Jesus and Paul. (I typed "premils" at first but "historic premils" are often very focused on political and cultural engagement.)
 

Stephen L Smith

Administrator
Staff member
I would argue that MLJ was optimistic Amill although it is true he became more pessimistic towards the end of his life. His views on revival were strongly influenced by the Welsh Calvinistic Methodist movement. He believed that when God sends revival the church often makes tremendous progress in the world, but that it is equally true there have been times of spiritual declension.

It is worth listening to both his eschatology lectures and his sermons on revival.
 

Ed Walsh

Puritan Board Senior
Has anyone listened to Martyn Lloyd Jones sermon on postmill and a spiritual interpretation of some parts of Revelation?
He seemingly doesn't ascribe to amill, premill, or postmill.

Hi Barney,

Welcome to the PB.
Could you please post the titles and/or sermon numbers of the MLJ messages you are talking about?

Thanks,

Ed Walsh
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
I would argue that MLJ was optimistic Amill although it is true he became more pessimistic towards the end of his life. His views on revival were strongly influenced by the Welsh Calvinistic Methodist movement. He believed that when God sends revival the church often makes tremendous progress in the world, but that it is equally true there have been times of spiritual declension.

It is worth listening to both his eschatology lectures and his sermons on revival.

Optimistic amil is generally associated with the transformation of society and not limited to revival. As noted above, MLJ took a dim view of the former.
I can’t recall ever seeing the term “optimistic amil” used without it being associated with some form of theonomy.

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Stephen L Smith

Administrator
Staff member
Optimistic amil is generally associated with the transformation of society and not limited to revival. As noted above, MLJ took a dim view of the former.
See MLJ's lecture on "Remembering the Reformation" in 'Knowing the Times'. Dr Lloyd-Jones gave this lecture in Scotland in 1960 to commemorate 400 years since the Reformation in Scotland. In this lecture MLJ states that Scotland was "supreme in her interest in education and the pursuit of knowledge" and that Scotland is a nation "famous for education, for knowledge, for culture" - all this because of the Protestant Reformation.

It is worth carefully reading the whole lecture. I found it - shall we say very optimistic ;)
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
See MLJ's lecture on "Remembering the Reformation" in 'Knowing the Times'. Dr Lloyd-Jones gave this lecture in Scotland in 1960 to commemorate 400 years since the Reformation in Scotland. In this lecture MLJ states that Scotland was "supreme in her interest in education and the pursuit of knowledge" and that Scotland is a nation "famous for education, for knowledge, for culture" - all this because of the Protestant Reformation.

It is worth carefully reading the whole lecture. I found it - shall we say very optimistic ;)

At other times, as far back as the 60s, he sounds like John MacArthur, if not J Vernon McGee.


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Barney

Puritan Board Freshman
Click on your username on the main navigation bar (on my screen, upper right next to the envelope and bell icons), click signature from the menu that appears, supply the information requested.
Hi does it look like I've done it? I did my best but I'm not convinced I've done it correctly. I wonder if it could be something to do with the android phone I'm using.
 

Barney

Puritan Board Freshman
Hi Barney,

Welcome to the PB.
Could you please post the titles and/or sermon numbers of the MLJ messages you are talking about?

Thanks,

Ed Walsh
Hi Ed,

Yes, there are a few that deal with the main eschatology systems and they are..
#8602
#8603
#8703
#8704

Thanks
 

Barney

Puritan Board Freshman
I am Amillennial. Postmil has been nicknamed, "Optimistic Amillennialism," thus Amils are sometimes called "pessimistic." I think that's unfortunate, since both anticipate the Lord's return as a great victory. The difference is in what we Amils and Postmils expect the Lord to find on the Earth when He returns. Postmils teach that the Church, through the power of the gospel, will have subdued the culture and the Lord will return to find a glorious, triumphant Church enjoying a golden age of Christian influence on the entire culture of mankind. Amils expect the Lord to return and rescue a small, persecuted remnant in a culture dominated by pagans.

Recommended reading: The Last Days According to Jesus by Dr. R.C. Sproul
Thanks. Was R.C amill? Pessimistic or optimistic?
Is the recommended reading from an amill perspective?
I was looking at purchasing William Hendriksen's book then at G K Beale's because a reviewer said it was more up to date?
It's a tad embarrassing because yesterday I said I was more postmill than premill and now today I could be more amill than postmill!
I am content to be on the fence right now though. Mlj presented a reasonable case for amill.
Regarding Rushdooney and others on reconstructionism, would you be able to guess what the general consensus on here would be towards it?
 

Christopher Robin

Puritan Board Freshman
Dr. Sproul does not take a position in the book one way or another, but lays out some historical events and differing interpretations of Scripture concerning last things. His goal is to boil it down to what Jesus said, not to justify one or another eschatological position.
 
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