Music and Composition

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Originally posted by biblelighthouse
I know just what you mean, Robin. I've met a lot of people like that. But I'm happy to say that I love music theory, and I love improvising, so I hope your comment wasn't directed at me!
Originally posted by Robin

Prepare to be blown-away, Joseph!

by what?

Hey, J,

To the first, I thought it important to say...I am continuallly confronted with false dichotomies by both types of musicians: ear and readers. There are unfortunate assumptions on both sides (itenerant and educated) of the musical spectrum. It's good to bring the two ends together.

To the second point, (I hope I'm not misunderstanding) I only meant to affirm that, upon inspection, the mathematical read-out of music does connect with the emotional traits of the sound. Excuse my blunder if I misunderstood.

r.
 
Originally posted by Robin

To the second point, (I hope I'm not misunderstanding) I only meant to affirm that, upon inspection, the mathematical read-out of music does connect with the emotional traits of the sound. Excuse my blunder if I misunderstood.

No problem at all . . . I understand what you're basically saying: "Mathematics doesn't mix with passion and emotion."

Well, I think music is very passionate and emotional . . . I also think it is utterly mathematical.

Perhaps it will help a little bit if I let you know what I think about mathematics: I think mathematics itself is very beautiful and amazing . . . almost an art form. Algebra, Trig, Calculus, Differential Equations, etc. just fascinate me, and I think they are warm, beautiful, artistic, and amazing . . . NOT cold and mechanical.

I guess you could say I don't draw the same dichotomies between Math/Science and Art/Emotion/Beauty that many people do.

God created Math. He also created Music. God created logic. He also created emotions. The Jewish temple had specific mathematical specifications, as well as (properly) emotional worship, music, singing, etc. Yet God is One. There is no division or contradiction within Him.

Math is often artistic. And art is often mathematical. They work together just fine. :handshake:


Your mathemusical brother in Christ,
Joseph

:detective:
 
Originally posted by Robin
I thought it important to say...I am continuallly confronted with false dichotomies by both types of musicians: ear and readers. There are unfortunate assumptions on both sides (itenerant and educated) of the musical spectrum. It's good to bring the two ends together.

:amen:

That's why I love trying to help my "left-brained" students use their right, and my "right-brained" students use their left.

To be a well-rounded musician, you must be able to sight-read music, AND understand music theory, AND be able to improvise, AND be able to play by ear . . . AMEN!
 
Quote:

"To be a well-rounded musician, you must be able to sight-read music, AND understand music theory, AND be able to improvise, AND be able to play by ear . . . AMEN! "

But to do it all very well takes a whole lifetime!

Getting back to what John V. started this post with: I agree with him that music seems to exist in its own intangeable universe waiting to be discovered by us.

The whole theory part comes afterwards in an attempt to organize/systemize and harness what (we've) found ...kind of like systematic theology in that sense.
 
Originally posted by SmokingFlax
Quote:

"To be a well-rounded musician, you must be able to sight-read music, AND understand music theory, AND be able to improvise, AND be able to play by ear . . . AMEN! "

But to do it all very well takes a whole lifetime!

Agreed! We should never stop growing as musicians.

Originally posted by SmokingFlax
Getting back to what John V. started this post with: I agree with him that music seems to exist in its own intangeable universe waiting to be discovered by us.

The whole theory part comes afterwards in an attempt to organize/systemize and harness what (we've) found ...kind of like systematic theology in that sense.

Good point. Mathematics itself is like that too. The pythagorean theorem is a beautiful part of God's creation that would be true whether anyone discovered it and codified it or not. The same goes for the intricate link between imaginary numbers and electrical physics. The same goes for trancendental numbers like pi and e. I love this stuff!


What is so amazing about music, math, etc. is that we even CAN "organize/systemize" it! As someone once said, "The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is the fact that it is so comprehensible." - - - God could have created math and music in such a way that it would defy all human attempts at codification . . . systematizing it would be impossible. But our artistic God is also our logical God.

Praise the Lord!!!

I feel a joyous Van-Tillian "many and one" presuppositional philosophical ecstatic utterance coming on! :D
 
Good stuff. I like what I'm reading. I'm learning from this.

A guy asked me once if I played by ear. I said I tried that once, but I couldn't get the pick to stay there. :D So I tried it on the piano, but I couldn't read the music that way. :banghead:

One day my church organist cousin came over for a visit and we jammed a bit on my little organ. He played some pieces out of my hymnbook, as it was a favourite book for both of us. I asked him some pointers, like how to do the peddles without looking, etc. And then we started to really jam. And his jaw dropped. I was playing pieces on demand, sort of, just going from one to another without notes in front of me, and he couldn't contain himself. He told me he was knocking himself out practicing from week to week preparing for worship, and it always felt so wooden to him to do that. And now he saw me just relaxed, being one tenth the organist he was, and doing what he could only dream of. And I wasn't even that good at the organ.

I met him again some time later, and he told me how this had effected him. He said that right there and then he stopped preparing by practicing, thinking that if John can do it, he sure can, and started preparing spiritually for the services. And he bacame twice the organist he was before.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I was listening to the Beach Boys today, one song after the other. I am amazed at their smooth harmonies. I think they are a good example of what I was talking about, that the harmonies that hit our ears are sometimes different than the mathematical harmonies. They are purposely slightly off on some strained notes, just for the sound of it.

But it is the resonance in our ears that makes for harmony, not mathematics. When two notes are in ever-so-slight disharmony, we hear a vibration in our heads that is uncomfortable, or just sounds flat. I've heard it in concerts, either classical pieces where they pride themselves on adjusting to the ear and keeping concert pitch, or in country music, or Marvin Hamlisch concerts. I've had trouble with it myself, getting my guitar just that little extra adjustment to get rid of that flat sound and make it ring.

I sometimes listen in to those jammers that come in to the music stores on a Saturday afternoons to "try out the guitars". Some of them can play a lot of riffs, and a few just don't hear the slight disharmonies they are making. They are so used to bending the strings that they seem lost with playing just chords, or straight notes. They just don't hear it. Their guitar is off. It's just a little bit, and you likely wouldn't discern it if you went through the tuning routine, but its off. It's not that it is out of harmony so much as it isn't "sweet" to the ear. You can tell. The more you work at that "sound" the more you get trained to tell the difference.

What I'm trying to get at is that music is like wisdom: it takes a lot of hard work. It isn't easy. No one is a natural when it comes down to it. There is giftedness, and there is talent, and there is an inborn feel for it, but it still takes a lot of work. You can't produce music mathematically, and you can't do it technically. It comes out of the heart, not the technical training. I once heard an old man do "You are My Sunshine" on the guitar, and it is still one of the most beautiful pieces I've ever heard. It was elegant and rich, simple and plain, but the guitar was alive, and his voice matched perfectly. And the song had a life of its own, it seemed. Everything else disappeared, and everything in the song became lucid, a clear picture in song. I was floored; and I've been pusuing same simple "wisdom" that ever since. It is part of the mandate of dominion. And the playing of instruments, of creating of pure melody and harmonies is praise to the Creator.

The RPW is meant to keep us from adding or subtracting from God's commands. They say that there are two sides to fall off a horse; lean that way too much to avoid the other side, and you'll fall off this side. You can become too lenient, and you can be too legalistic. One is as bad as the other, because both are the same thing in the end, a departure from the truth. To reject what God has blessed is wrong. I don't think He'll bless the preaching of His Word if the preacher is more intent on his own gospel than God's; and likewise God won't be pleased if in our praise we praise ourselves, by elevating our preferences, instead of praising Him. Imitating George Harrison or the Rolling Stones or any modern trend is not praise because it praises the trend along with God. As if God was a hippie once. It is we who have to rise above the grip modern trendiness has on us, and get back to real music in the worship service.

Now I'm ranting.... Oh boy. :banghead:
 
Originally posted by JohnV
Good stuff. I like what I'm reading. I'm learning from this.

A guy asked me once if I played by ear. I said I tried that once, but I couldn't get the pick to stay there. :D So I tried it on the piano, but I couldn't read the music that way.

:lol:

I make the same types of smart-alec comments to people when they ask me if I "play by ear"! :) (Actually, I like to play by ear, just like you do.)
 
Speaking from the point of view of poetry (which is something I can speak more intelligibly about than music theory), the best poets are those who know the rules and can follow the rules of poetic composition, and yet, if the occasion warrants, they can bend the rules to make language and grammar provide a more effective vehicle for the message of the poem. In other words, the form of a sonnet is good and helps to provide a good construct or vehicle for a poem, but if the poet who knows the rules can then tweak them appriopriately he is not locked into a form but rather builds upon the form. Rules in art are meant to guide not stifle. Likewise, I think, consonnance is music is good. It combines a thought to be expressed with a vehicle that does the job in accordance with commendable principles of order and harmony. But is dissonance in music somehow sinful? I think an over-reliance on dissonance, which is characteristic of rock music as a genre, is not good. But, like the poet, who, knowing the rules of good poetry, is not bound to the vehicle of a sonnet, and can move beyond those rules if it serves his purpose, so can the musical composer employ dissonance if that vehicle serves his purpose. The question then, framed in the language of Francis Schaeffer, is whether the integregation of content and vehicle serve a purpose that glorifies God. To the extent that they do, that is good art.

BTW, I like Bach's music in part because of the mathematical approach he took to his art. It carries over into rock too, as we see in comparing Bach's Minuet in G and the Toys' A Lover's Concerto (cf. Mr. Holland's Opus).

Bach and Visual-Spatial Music

Bernstein on Bach and Mathematical Music

Math and Music
 
Originally posted by JohnV

But it is the resonance in our ears that makes for harmony, not mathematics.

Correction: The resonance in our ears IS mathematical. For example, check out the info on this little dynamic spectrograms of music website.

". . . each fundamental and each harmonic is, by definition, a sine-wave shape. This is important because the ear (via the basilar membrane) discriminates and separates out the separate sine waves in a sound, i.e. it separates out the tones and harmonics. The spectrograms as well separate out the sine waves, and display strength of each sine component. "



(By the way, John, I love what you wrote above. There is a definite art and "wisdom" to good music. Well said. I just appreciate the art and wisdom behind mathematics too, and I recognize the close tie between music and math . . . even when you get down to nitty-gritty aspects like harmonic resonance in the human ear.)



[Edited on 8-9-2005 by biblelighthouse]
 
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Originally posted by JohnV

But it is the resonance in our ears that makes for harmony, not mathematics.

Correction: The resonance in our ears IS mathematical. For example, check out the info on this little dynamic spectrograms of music website.

". . . each fundamental and each harmonic is, by definition, a sine-wave shape. This is important because the ear (via the basilar membrane) discriminates and separates out the separate sine waves in a sound, i.e. it separates out the tones and harmonics. The spectrograms as well separate out the sine waves, and display strength of each sine component. "



(By the way, John, I love what you wrote above. There is a definite art and "wisdom" to good music. Well said. I just appreciate the art and wisdom behind mathematics too, and I recognize the close tie between music and math . . . even when you get down to nitty-gritty aspects like harmonic resonance in the human ear.)



[Edited on 8-9-2005 by biblelighthouse]

Thanks!

In reference to the mathematical part, I was referring to obvious dissonances that kind of define the genre. For example the Beach Boys. They made their slightly off notes sound more alive by doing it just right, and making it smooth. You'll find the same used differently in different genres. In Classical, however, the emphasis is on the purity of the music. But I once attended a string trio with piano concert, and I saw the cellist and violinist doing their version of bending the strings. There are no frets on a violin on purpose; and it is not called the queen of instruments for nothing. Even in choir we are told to sometimes overreach our notes instead of trying to reach them. In that case, of course, what our own ears tell us is different than what other ears hear.

Let me see if I can make it more plain. Do you remember Jerry Reed's theme song for "Smokey and the Bandit"? Do you remember how, in the instrumental part, he bends the strings so that his notes don't quite reach the proper pitch? That's exactly the sound he wanted: he didn't want to reach the right pitch. That was the sound. It was a "sweet" dissonance to that genre. If he didn't do that it would have sounded flat, even though he reached the right notes. Its there to less of an extent in Willie Nelson's "On the Road Again", the instrumental part. And it was there also in the Classical quartet concert, but in less degree and in different ways. It gives it that "life" that makes for expression.

This is kind of getting off topic, as I like to keep this in the ecclesiology department. But these tidbits are all part of taking to task our responsibilities in music in worship. It doesn't have to be expert, or even technically good. It certainly doesn't have to be professional. It has to come from the heart, no matter the level of proficiency. But we cannot be slaves to trends or devices. For then the no-instrument faction is right. I'm trying to prove that instruments are not devices of that kind, but are strivings at beauty and praise all in themselves. They are tools given for that purpose. For it is my contention that all music is basically praise and worship, though it does have side uses as well. We are warned not sing to a heavy heart: it is like taking off his coat in cold weather. In other words, it is exposure, not consolation.
 
Hey, my Theomusicalmathical-Brothers!

I couldn't agree more with all the above posts!!! The more mileage I put-on the road of life, the more I realize how utterly wrong it is to try to separate the arts/sciences...including theology and philosophy.

Math and music (like all the arts) come from the mind of God Himself. We can only discover and try to organize/codify them in our puny, crude ways.

In music, you know that moment when your're improvising and the language perfectly connects with your soul - (to me, it's like opening a "door" which I actually see in my mind)...as I play, I can travel to "places" so sublime and special - a indescribable sensation...like flying with no airplane! ?? Well, in my opinion, I think that has something to do with the "age to come" eschatologically. I think it's a glimpse of heaven, in a manner of speaking. (Not to get heretical or anything :cool: ) It's just that they say that all the good things here on earth are glimpses of the perfection in the Age to Come - when Christ will restore creation beyond Eden to the enth degree - unimaginable! Well, I think the best music can "take" us to the "foyer" of that place. It is not an empty-emotive experience - it can only be achieved through the knowledge and speech of music in the mind/heart.

:um:

r.



[Edited on 8-10-2005 by Robin]
 
What good is melody, what good is music
If it ain't possessin' something sweet
It ain't the melody, it ain't the music
There's something else that makes the tune complete
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing
It don't mean a thing, all you got to do is sing
It makes no diff'rence if it's sweet or hot
Just give that rhythm ev'rything you got
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing -- Ella Fitzgerald
 
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