Scottish Presbyterian
Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm not sure whether my contributions were among those perceived as uncharitable, but if they were I apologise.
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I don't recall anything you have said that was uncharitable. Again, my purpose in this is not to squelch any real debate. It is to shear off the rhetorical excess and the ridicule. JD has already acknowledged that he went beyond the pale. EP'ers have not.I'm not sure whether my contributions were among those perceived as uncharitable, but if they were I apologise.
JD has already acknowledged that he went beyond the pale. EP'ers have not.
Lane, how exactly are the EP'ers with charity, to interpret the words of someone (JD) who has publicly called EP an abomination and a doctrine of Satan? He has done this in at least two forums I am aware of - the PuritanBoard and on Facebook (since you are calling your blog as a witness, I do not feel badly in bringing FB into the discussion). Many of us saw his first post (and some his prior post on FB) even though it was taken down. Then two or more threads in rapid succession. I have never seen anything like it on my time on the PB. I also would remind you that non-EPers were calling JD to take a break. It was not just EP'ers.
I am also unsure why you associate the EP'ers here with Schwertley (who did not contribute to any of these threads). That seems as out of bounds as if I called your fellow OPC minister Donald Poundstone as a testimony of what an IP'er is like - someone who says that many psalms are unsuitable for Christians to sing (at least not without tinkering with them). Article published in your own denomination's magazine. (I put this here because I know you would not agree with him, not because I want to create guilt-association).
I agree. I’m not EP, and that article was almost pure cringe.Wow, that article is abysmal.
Jon, there were many posts responding to JD. I'm afraid you'll just have to wade through them to find what you want.So, is there a post that deals with responding to JD's questions? If so can someone provide a link?
Thanks Lane; I appreciate you greatly.
I agree. I’m not EP, and that article was almost pure cringe.
Wow, that article is abysmal.
Pretty bad. It reminds of the objection The True Psalmody addressed in really the only but succint way as opposed to other objections.
"8. That the Psalms contain sentiments adverse to the spirit of the gospel; abounding with sharp invectives against personal enemies, and being, in many instances, expressive of revenge, etc." Answer. It is blasphemy.
Digging for this came up this old newsletter whihc lead article may be of interest (my old church's newsletter I edited)
Volume 12 Issue 4. October-December 2003.
Bacon: Objections to Psalmody: The Psalms Contain a Sub-Christian Ethic. Except for a few issues I think the PCA Historical Center has in physical copy or has them scanned I think (I'll have to look), the site has a tolerably complete run of The Blue Banner. https://www.thebluebanner.com/
Pretty bad. It reminds of the objection The True Psalmody addressed in really the only but succint way as opposed to other objections.
"8. That the Psalms contain sentiments adverse to the spirit of the gospel; abounding with sharp invectives against personal enemies, and being, in many instances, expressive of revenge, etc." Answer. It is blasphemy.
Digging for this came up this old newsletter whihc lead article may be of interest (my old church's newsletter I edited)
Volume 12 Issue 4. October-December 2003.
Bacon: Objections to Psalmody: The Psalms Contain a Sub-Christian Ethic. Except for a few issues I think the PCA Historical Center has in physical copy or has them scanned I think (I'll have to look), the site has a tolerably complete run of The Blue Banner. https://www.thebluebanner.com/
There are too many whose experience is more like Grant's @Smeagol who can't get their churches to get a psalm into the line up even once in a great long while.Blasphemy is right.
There are certainly more articulate and erudite defenses of non-psalm singing that do not necessarily indict the sweet psalmist of Israel nor the Spirit that inspired him, but this is not it. The logical consequence of the article is that Leviticus need not be bound with our Bibles because we are only told to preach and read the word, not the entire word. It's absurd at face value.
I do find it hard to disagree with Trueman's assessment. I don't think that he's saying that a defense of hymn singing is never allowable (that is if you believe its biblical as he does) but that it is strange given the cultural and ecclesiastical tide. If I attend an OPC sabbath ed. class on worship, I'd be quite concerned if they didn't defend singing hymns, as they believe it is a necessary part of public worship. And such a defense would require a critique of the EP position. It would be hard to convince me that Trueman would disagree. Where his critique hits home is all of the critiques of EP by churches where a psalm cannot be found. I've been to OPC and URC churches where Psalms took the priority - and good on them for practicing what they preach as it were. But the mainstay of NAPARC churches go years without a psalm in sight. It is a shame.
Maybe though this is verging to another direction than the original OP (which is probably my bad; apologies).There are too many whose experience is more like Grant's @Smeagol who can't get their churches to get a psalm into the line up even once in a great long while.
Yes; I only wish I had the full run just for completeness. PCA Historical Center has a full run from my copies and I think he sent me scans of some but I have not updated thebluebanner.com in a long time; I have to do ftp to do it if I recall. I also do not recall if that is on Rich's server or not; the renewal is coming up; I did 10 years the first time for the domain name. @Semper FidelisUntil now, I did not know The Blue Banner has its own web site. So often I find links to a particular newsletter, but the link is to your old church's website, and I cannot follow it. But now I know I can find them at this URL. I am sure that this is old news to many, but I am a bit slow at times.
There are too many whose experience is more like Grant's @Smeagol who can't get their churches to get a psalm into the line up even once in a great long while.
Blasphemy is right.
There are certainly more articulate and erudite defenses of non-psalm singing that do not necessarily indict the sweet psalmist of Israel nor the Spirit that inspired him, but this is not it. The logical consequence of the article is that Leviticus need not be bound with our Bibles because we are only told to preach and read the word, not the entire word. It's absurd at face value.
I do find it hard to disagree with Trueman's assessment. I don't think that he's saying that a defense of hymn singing is never allowable (that is if you believe its biblical as he does) but that it is strange given the cultural and ecclesiastical tide. If I attend an OPC sabbath ed. class on worship, I'd be quite concerned if they didn't defend singing hymns, as they believe it is a necessary part of public worship. And such a defense would require a critique of the EP position. It would be hard to convince me that Trueman would disagree. Where his critique hits home is all of the critiques of EP by churches where a psalm cannot be found. I've been to OPC and URC churches where Psalms took the priority - and good on them for practicing what they preach as it were. But the mainstay of NAPARC churches go years without a psalm in sight. It is a shame.
You didn't visit us then (or is was a very off Lord's Day AM service).When I was looking for a church home after being convicted of singing the psalms, I went to OPC and PCA churches in the DFW area, but they did not sing a single psalm in their services. But in God's providence, that led to the planting of our congregation. Again, I am overwhelmed with how many are coming into churches like ours after rediscovering the beauty of the psalms.
I think Trueman's point is a good one as he is a hymn singer and a respected member of the OPC (last I checked). He is a good counterpoint to men like Poundstone. Also, he points us to Athanasius' wonderful letter to Marcellinus on the psalms, which everyone should read In my humble opinion.
Sorry for the rabbit trails.
You didn't visit us then (or is was a very off Lord's Day AM service).
No Dutch Reformed churches in Dallas?LOL. No, we did not! I think I just got discouraged after visiting a few different churches.
Bethel a CRC church went PCA 15 or so years ago or longer; I don't know what their worship practice was like.No Dutch Reformed churches in Dallas?
Probably good; history may have been different (in theory; not in the decrees!).LOL. No, we did not! I think I just got discouraged after visiting a few different churches.
I agree with you and Mason. However as a technical note, thankfully our Elder’s have maintained at least 1 Psalm sing in each of the morning and evening worship services! Psalms still got the annual axe during the infamous candle worship season, but this has still been an improvement that I am ever thankful to our session and Pastor for maintaining.There are too many whose experience is more like Grant's @Smeagol who can't get their churches to get a psalm into the line up even once in a great long while.
I just saw this thread and since my name was brought up...
@greenbaggins is correct and thank you for understanding that. My original intent was to be very polemical in nature and it went beyond the pale. I do believe EP is error, but I don't really think it is a doctrine from Satan, and I apologize and repent from ever saying it.
I then proposed an objection that I had never seen brought up in what I considered a non-formal logical and Scriptural argument. And yes, I did get prickly when the arguments against seemed to be red herrings or ad hominem. I have taken and accepted moderator guidance in this matter, and will attempt to do better.
The third attempt was another modified approach tied to an additional argument with a promise to be more charitable.
I understand that it sometimes seems I play a "harp with one string", but I have an interest in building arguments against EP, that should be no secret at all, and I do so unapologetically.
I have also accepted moderator guidance to let the matter rest for a bit and I intend to honor that guidance.