OPC Question and answer site.

Status
Not open for further replies.

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
http://opc.org/qa.html?question_id=519

Below is the question and answer. Concerning the highlighted below it seems to me as if they are saying that the "for anyone", "you", "all", and "all people" are being spoken of as an Arminian would answer.

Question:

Does God desire that everyone be saved?

Answer:

In a very positive and clear way the Bible teaches that God does not desire for anyone to perish, but to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. For instance, in 2 Peter 3:9, he says: “The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” Paul says, “This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3–4).

In addition, we can—in fact, we must—also say that God does not will that all be saved. All things which God wills he desires, but not all things that he desires does he will.

Some theologians have made the very helpful distinction between God’s prescriptive will and his decretive will. The former denotes God’s revealed will to mankind in the form of a command. These are the things that God wills for man to do. Here we can say that it is God’s will, his desire, and his command that all men repent and be saved. But the latter denotes God’s eternal, sovereign decree by which he ordains all things which come to pass according to the counsel of his will. And in this eternal sense of God’s will we can say that he wills for some to be saved and some to be condemned. Compare, for instance, these two Scriptures:

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will. (Eph. 1:11)
and:

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:15–24)
Not inspired, but also very helpful reading, is the teaching of the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 3 on this
 
Last edited:
Some theologians have made the very helpful distinction between God’s prescriptive will and his decretive will. The former denotes God’s revealed will to mankind in the form of a command. These are the things that God wills for man to do. Here we can say that it is God’s will, his desire, and his command that all men repent and be saved.


When theologians are explaining the moral implications of the gospel they need to guard against the tendency to turn the gospel into a new moral code. Salvation is not something "that God wills for man to do." Holy Scripture explicitly proclaims that salvation is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

James Durham helpfully distinguishes things that differ. He wrote, "It will not follow, Christ willeth persons to repent, therefore he willeth their salvation: because he may be said to will them to repent, when he requireth it of them as their duty; and thus, their duty of repenting is the immediate object of his revealed and preceptive will: but a person’s salvation is the proper object of his will of good pleasure, or of his decreeing and purposing will. And no otherwise can he be said, to will such person’s salvation (because he commanded them to repent) than this, viz. that in his word he hath signified repentance to be such a person’s duty, and that he hath appointed a connection between repentance and salvation."
 
MW said:
James Durham helpfully distinguishes things that differ.
Would it be fair to say that the salvation of sinners is a thing that is in and of itself pleasing to God? If so, wouldn't this have to be part of the revealed will? But if that is the case, why is salvation only the object of God's will of decree? Is the revealed will contain more than just what God reveals man ought to do do? (And so "preceptive will" or "will of command" are not exhaustively the same as "revealed will.")
 
Some theologians have made the very helpful distinction between God’s prescriptive will and his decretive will. The former denotes God’s revealed will to mankind in the form of a command. These are the things that God wills for man to do. Here we can say that it is God’s will, his desire, and his command that all men repent and be saved.


When theologians are explaining the moral implications of the gospel they need to guard against the tendency to turn the gospel into a new moral code. Salvation is not something "that God wills for man to do." Holy Scripture explicitly proclaims that salvation is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

James Durham helpfully distinguishes things that differ. He wrote, "It will not follow, Christ willeth persons to repent, therefore he willeth their salvation: because he may be said to will them to repent, when he requireth it of them as their duty; and thus, their duty of repenting is the immediate object of his revealed and preceptive will: but a person’s salvation is the proper object of his will of good pleasure, or of his decreeing and purposing will. And no otherwise can he be said, to will such person’s salvation (because he commanded them to repent) than this, viz. that in his word he hath signified repentance to be such a person’s duty, and that he hath appointed a connection between repentance and salvation."

I wish not to disparage a denomination that my denomination(PCA) is in fraternal relationship with and I hope my brothers and sisters in the OPC did not take my thoughts on how I see the first paragraph and the two scriptural references appears to sound like God desires "all men" ,which includes the reprobate, to not "perish", "repent", "be saved" "and come to the knowledge of the truth".

The qualifier you,Rev. Winzer, In my most humble opinion appears to say that the arminian view is acceptable and is indeed a majority view of the OPC in that God desires the reprobate and the elect to have the benefits Christ procured. I understand such because of reading the majority and minority view on the OPC site on the desire of God. I also understand the majority viewers would say that 2 Peter 3:9 refers to the elect,and 1 Tim. 2:3–4 is referring to all kinds of men.

I think this comes down to....Does God desire the reprobate to end up in hell? I see no way to come to any other conclusion in that "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass" which includes His desire to allow much of humanity to die in their sin.
 
Would it be fair to say that the salvation of sinners is a thing that is in and of itself pleasing to God? If so, wouldn't this have to be part of the revealed will? But if that is the case, why is salvation only the object of God's will of decree? Is the revealed will contain more than just what God reveals man ought to do do? (And so "preceptive will" or "will of command" are not exhaustively the same as "revealed will.")

One has to define what he means by the terms and distinctions in use, and then keep within the limits of the definition. If "revealed will" is distinct from "decretive will," what does it mean, especially when the Scripture "reveals" that salvation is decreed by God of His own good pleasure?

Usually "revealed" is distinguished from "secret." There is no secret to the fact that God has decreed salvation. This is evidently revealed. It is the individual persons who are elected to salvation which remains a secret, and this only comes to light by the individual complying with the revealed will of God.

The revealed will of God is to repent and believe the gospel. The revealed will of God is that whoever believes in Christ shall have everlasting life. There is no revealed will of God to save every man irrespective of whether he believes in Christ. The revealed will of God is explicit that unbelievers shall perish in their sins.
 
The revealed will of God is explicit that unbelievers shall perish in their sins.

Per His pleasure or desire in His secret will.....correct? Of course I ask to prick our brothers and sisters to look further in to God's proper will and to encourage the OPC Q & A site to modify the answer to the question for In my most humble opinion it is promoting an unbiblical view of 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Tim. 2:3–4 by stating God desires all (reprobate and elect) to be saved. I also want to say I appreciate the qualification of the remaining answer given though this is equivocation which is unbefitting to the Official Reformed site of the OPC. For we all know everything that passes is according to God's proper will which is always pleasurable within Himself.
 
Last edited:
The revealed will of God is explicit that unbelievers shall perish in their sins.

Per His pleasure or desire in His secret will.....correct?

A "secret will" could be no rule to us. We could never know it. The point is that the "revealed will" does not merely reveal the mercy of God in Christ, but also makes known the justice of God to those who remain unbelievers. By this means we know in general what God will do in the case of believers and unbelievers; so we should affirm that God's will, though decreed, is revealed in general and is not secret. The overall point is that "revealed" should be distinguished from "secret," not from "decretive." "Preceptive" and "decretive" are properly distinguished, but "revealed" and "decretive" is not a balanced distinction.
 
The revealed will of God is explicit that unbelievers shall perish in their sins.

Per His pleasure or desire in His secret will.....correct?

A "secret will" could be no rule to us. We could never know it. The point is that the "revealed will" does not merely reveal the mercy of God in Christ, but also makes known the justice of God to those who remain unbelievers. By this means we know in general what God will do in the case of believers and unbelievers; so we should affirm that God's will, though decreed, is revealed in general and is not secret. The overall point is that "revealed" should be distinguished from "secret," not from "decretive." "Preceptive" and "decretive" are properly distinguished, but "revealed" and "decretive" is not a balanced distinction.

Indeed in that if His will is secrete we can not know. Thank you for the correction.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top