Opinions on heaven of those in OT times.

[earl40]

I am in discussion with the phrase "kingdom of heaven" (KOH) as used in Matthew 11:11 and 18:1. Now I do understand that the phrase KOH or "kingdom of God" as used in Matthew can mean that anywhere Jesus is the kingdom is. Now is stating this is there a possibility that the KOH as answered by Jesus in Matthew 11:11 and asked by the disciples in Matthew 18:1 can be a reference to the estate of the soul after physical death (heaven as we know it). I understand we have a very good perspective with the NT cannon but In my most humble opinion we cannot assume the OT saint did not have a pretty good idea that there was a place we rested till the resurrection (heaven), as evidenced by the sister of Lazarus and her confession of the future resurrection.

 

[earl40]

Now is stating this is there a possibility that the KOH as answered by Jesus in Matthew 11:11 and asked by the disciples in Matthew 18:1 can be a reference to the estate of the soul after physical death (heaven as we know it) ?

 

[Warren]

Now is stating this is there a possibility that the KOH as answered by Jesus in Matthew 11:11 and asked by the disciples in Matthew 18:1 can be a reference to the estate of the soul after physical death (heaven as we know it) ?

Every soul must decrease to enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:30), because the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto the straight gate that leads to life. John exemplified this humility in his life and preaching, decreasing for the King unto death.

He's the greatest in the sense his doctrine was the one taught by Jesus, first publicly in Capernaum and the Galilee (Matthew 4:13). In that sense, that we must humble ourselves as low as John did for the Kingdom, we are judged by his standard. Its not as if John will be greater than all others, or he will be more blessed than another believer... if that was your question.

 

[earl40]

Now is stating this is there a possibility that the KOH as answered by Jesus in Matthew 11:11 and asked by the disciples in Matthew 18:1 can be a reference to the estate of the soul after physical death (heaven as we know it) ?

Every soul must decrease to enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:30), because the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto the straight gate that leads to life. John exemplified this humility in his life and preaching, decreasing for the King unto death.

He's the greatest in the sense his doctrine was the one taught by Jesus, first publicly in Capernaum and the Galilee (Matthew 4:13). In that sense, that we must humble ourselves as low as John did for the Kingdom, we are judged by his standard. Its not as if John will be greater than all others, or he will be more blessed than another believer... if that was your question.

I was thinking along the lines of the glorification of the saints and how some will have more crowns to lay at His feet than others. The ones with more crowns could be greater than those with less crowns. All becuse of His grace of course.

 

[Warren]

I was thinking along the lines of the glorification of the saints and how some will have more crowns to lay at His feet than others. The ones with more crowns could be greater than those with less crowns. All becuse of His grace of course.

I know the 24 Elders have crowns to lay at his feet... Its been a long time since I've heard a teaching on the crowns of saints. I was never too sure what people meant when they taught some will have more crowns, except that some will lose more than others for the Kingdom. It seems to me, God's grace is shown when those who have pretensions to greatness are humbled the most, and love the Kingdom of Heaven before their own kingdoms... Let me see what my Geneva Bible commentary has to say

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+4:10-11

The glorification of saints, shown in the 24 Elders, is probably a corporate glorification, so maybe you're looking for something that says more about individuals... A theologian on the PB is who you need now.

 

[earl40]

Where my confusion arose on this issue is that I took (KOH) as meaning the state of the person who has died in the OT and was with The Lord in glory. In Matthew 11 we have Jesus explaining how the KOH was manifested with His incarnation and how with His coming the old administration of grace (law) was passing and the new order (grace) has come in His person. Now in stating this I realize Matthew 11:1 does not speak directly to the OT saints directly, but the idea of position or greatness in heaven In my most humble opinion is spoken to in other passages and I juxtaposed those passages with those in Matthew 11:1. Now in Matthew 18:1 I do think Our Lord does indeed speak to the issue of greatness and how it is achieved which applies to OT saints and NT saints.