Paedobaptists....how would you interpret -

[Kevin Lewis]

How would you interpret Hebrews 3:16-19? Who were the unbelieving? Were they those in the covenant? Why were they unable to enter his rest?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Who were the unbelieving?

Were they those in the covenant?

Why were they unable to enter his rest?

1) The generation of our fathers who came out of Egypt. (most of them)

2) They were all outwardly in covenant.

3) Unbelief, leading to disobedience.

 

[Kevin Lewis]

1) The generation of our fathers who came out of Egypt. (most of them)

2) They were all outwardly in covenant.

3) Unbelief, leading to disobedience.

What do you mean they were "outwardly" in the covenant? (vs. inwardly?). I'm not quite sure what this means.

If they were the generation of our fathers (Jews - In the covenant), are they not guaranteed to go to heaven based upon the fact that they are Jewish - and thus in the covenant since they would have been circumcised?

To me, I read this passage and it says you can be in the covenant (outwardly) as child of a believer, and yet still not believe and end up going to hell. Would you agree?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

What do you mean they were "outwardly" in the covenant? (vs. inwardly?). I'm not quite sure what this means.

Meaning they were admitted to the Covenant by circumcision but they never embraced the promise, by faith, that the sign signified.

If they were the generation of our fathers (Jews - In the covenant), are they not guaranteed to go to heaven based upon the fact that they are Jewish - and thus in the covenant since they would have been circumcised?

Why would you ever believe that unless you'd been taught by Pharisees?

To me, I read this passage and it says you can be in the covenant (outwardly) as child of a believer, and yet still not believe and end up going to hell. Would you agree?

It wouldn't just be a "child of a believer" who can be in the covenant (outwardly) and still not believe and end up going to hell. Anybody who does not embrace and rest upon Christ by faith will not be saved.

 

[Davidius]

Why would you ever believe that unless you'd been taught by Pharisees?

Well, we did recently have the thread about Baptists having errors similar to those of the Pharisees when it comes to the covenant and its signs, etc.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

What do you mean they were "outwardly" in the covenant? (vs. inwardly?). I'm not quite sure what this means.

If they were the generation of our fathers (Jews - In the covenant), are they not guaranteed to go to heaven based upon the fact that they are Jewish - and thus in the covenant since they would have been circumcised?

To me, I read this passage and it says you can be in the covenant (outwardly) as child of a believer, and yet still not believe and end up going to hell. Would you agree?

1) By "outwardly" I mean they participated in the covenant signs, the covenant worship, covenant vows, covenant language, covenant ... whatever was "outward". But the Bible tells us they didn't have faith. So they had the "accidents" of the covenant, but not the "substance." They didn't have the inward reality. Just the outward profession. These people were, for the most part, non-elect, non-regenerate people. They were incapable of TOUCHING the the essence of the covenant.

2) ... uuuh ... Noooooo ... What ... on ... earth ... would give you cause say this? I mean, I know (I'm sure) you don't personally believe what you wrote.
So, it must be that in some ... strange way you think maybe I believe something in that statement is accurate?!? You are imputing something to me, you must be. A man would have to be a Pharisee, and think he was accepted by God because of his membership in the covenant community. Do you think that presbyterians think that about themselves, or their children? Jesus rebuked Nicodemus (Thou art THE teacher in Israel and dost not understand these things?) for not teaching the people that God's people must be changed from within in order that they might "see" (faith, spiritual sight) the kingdom. He was telling him that anyone who ever though that for 1500 years was wrong like a football bat.

I read the Bible front to back. The fathers of my "country" are: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Phineas, Samuel, David, Elijah, Isaiah, Nehemiah, Peter, James, John, ... They are MY fathers, and MY mothers, Sarah, Rebecka, Jochebed, Rahab, Ruth, Abigail, the Shunemite woman, Esther, ...

Those men and women are my saintly heritage. But its not fair for me to pick and choose. Not every one of my relatives were elect. Some left their bones in the wilderness. Others were dragged off to Babylon. The church has never been pure, it never will be until glory. But I intend by grace to have MY seat, at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, me and the rest of my relatives from the north, south, east, and west. Circumcision was something outward, so it designated person in covenant outwardly. It couldn't work any internal spiritual work on a person, it did him no good apart from faith.

3) Yes, one can be outwardly in the covenant, still not believe, and go to hell. Whether he's a grown-up or a child. Because he is reprobate. He has no apprehension of the invisible substance of the covenant. He's blind.



If you have a point, I'm willing to follow you along here, post by post, but if you have something to say, please make yourself clear. Not like that second bullet....

 

[MW]

1) The generation of our fathers who came out of Egypt. (most of them)

So say our faithful reformation versions.

 

[larryjf]

What do you mean they were "outwardly" in the covenant? (vs. inwardly?). I'm not quite sure what this means.

In the NT one can be outwardly in the covenant as well...

[bible]1 Jn 2:19[/bible]