Postmodernism???

[Scott Shahan]

What exactly does the term mean? It's seems like everybody and his brother have a different meaning?? When I hear this word brought up in conversation I don't really know how to think about it. Can you shine a little light for me so that I might have a better understanding of the term "Postmodern"

thanks

 

[Calvibaptist]

Personally, I think it means, for me anyway, that there is no real absolute truth. You know, it is sort of that everything is relative depending on your point of view. That is how I feel about it, but someone else might feel a little differently. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Scott Shahan]

Personally, I think it means, for me anyway, that there is no real absolute truth. You know, it is sort of that everything is relative depending on your point of view. That is how I feel about it, but someone else might feel a little differently. What do the rest of you think?

you know that is a excellent point, Postmodernism means whatever you want it to mean. no wonder I don't know what it means because it means whatever an individual wants it to mean and that is what postmodernism is. whatever the "I" say's it is... am i on the right track?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Personally, I think it means, for me anyway, that there is no real absolute truth. You know, it is sort of that everything is relative depending on your point of view. That is how I feel about it, but someone else might feel a little differently. What do the rest of you think?

you know that is a excellent point, Postmodernism means whatever you want it to mean. no wonder I don't know what it means because it means whatever an individual wants it to mean and that is what postmodernism is. whatever the "I" say's it is... am i on the right track?

Yes. In fact, my initial response was an attempt to illustrate the postmodern viewpoint which is that all views are equally valid, except, of course, for conservative Christianity.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Personally, I think it means, for me anyway, that there is no real absolute truth. You know, it is sort of that everything is relative depending on your point of view. That is how I feel about it, but someone else might feel a little differently. What do the rest of you think?

you know that is a excellent point, Postmodernism means whatever you want it to mean. no wonder I don't know what it means because it means whatever an individual wants it to mean and that is what postmodernism is. whatever the "I" say's it is... am i on the right track?

Yes. In fact, my initial response was an attempt to illustrate the postmodern viewpoint which is that all views are equally valid, except, of course, for conservative Christianity.

So Postmodernism is relativism....?

 

[toddpedlar]

you know that is a excellent point, Postmodernism means whatever you want it to mean. no wonder I don't know what it means because it means whatever an individual wants it to mean and that is what postmodernism is. whatever the "I" say's it is... am i on the right track?

Yes. In fact, my initial response was an attempt to illustrate the postmodern viewpoint which is that all views are equally valid, except, of course, for conservative Christianity.

So Postmodernism is relativism....?

I think it's safer to say that it incorporates relativism as part of its worldview. Postmodernism is a worldview in which absolutes are gone, definitions are primarily (if not entirely) subjective, etc. Postmodern literary criticism incorporates the ideas that an author's intended meaning in his words is not what defines the meaning of a text - what defines that meaning is the reader and the reader's context. Postmodern philosophy incorporates relativism at its core - and postmodern views of religion have the same kind of relativistic anti-objectivist flavor. It's very scary when postmodernism rules the world... but when it comes into the church (e.g. in the emergent cult) it's bad news.

 

[RamistThomist]

you know that is a excellent point, Postmodernism means whatever you want it to mean. no wonder I don't know what it means because it means whatever an individual wants it to mean and that is what postmodernism is. whatever the "I" say's it is... am i on the right track?

Yes. In fact, my initial response was an attempt to illustrate the postmodern viewpoint which is that all views are equally valid, except, of course, for conservative Christianity.

So Postmodernism is relativism....?

Relativism is a consequence of postmodernism, but it is not postmodernism.

Better put, postmodernism states that all truth claims are merely language constructs.

 

[RamistThomist]

Or say it another way,

Postmodernism is reacting against the epistemological arrogance of the Enligtenment and "modernism."

They want a "chastened" epistemology. Truth finds it fuller meaning in "the community."

 

[VictorBravo]

Todd's definition is pretty good, considering that postmodernism by its own principles (as if had such) defies definition.

One problem with the term is that it originally was a reactionary description applied to opposition to modern art. It basically was against whatever modern art was for (and who could disagree with that?). Then it became adopted by other movements to various degrees.

Central to postmodernism is the concept of "deconstruction." Earlier deconstructionists, like Derrida, didn't like the term, but it stuck. The idea is to question everything, including the act of questioning itself. If you have succeeded in convincing yourself that meaning is meaningless, you've arrived. The obvious problem that postmodernists are starting to face is that you end up with nothing to say.

I have a hunch that the postmodernism movement is actually a good thing because it exposes the bankruptcy of the two primary prongs of philosophical thought intertwined in modernism: Rationalism and Empiricism. The Rationalists tried to determine meaning apart from experience (according to some unexperiencable ideal), the empiricists tried to derive meaning from experience (according only to observations with our senses). The Rationalists end up separating "reality" from experience and the Empiricists ended up making meaning subjective. Neither one leads to truth and the postmodernists point this out effectively.

So when the postmodernists finally deconstruct themselves, there will be nothing left standing except an acknowledgement of the need for absolute truth. It's an ugly process, but I think that's how it will end up. May God be glorified in all of this because he is the one where the absolute is found.

 

[Scott Shahan]

I've heard it put this way, The Bible is true if the reader who is reading the bible believes it to be true.

 

[LockTheDeadbolt]

Postmodernism (while including the already mentioned aspects of relativism and deconstructionism) is also characterized by suspicion and skepticism of anything classified as "modern," which means really anyone/thing which makes claims of over-arcing objectivity or certainty regarding truth, which are seen as "power plays," an attempt at controlling the thoughts and behaviors of others, which is one of the few things viewed as (dare I say, absolutely?) immoral from within the framework.

The Tower of Babel has been used as a helpful metaphor: It's as if modernism built a prideful tower of so-called truth, certainty and knowledge on an unbiblical foundation ("Look at what modern man has accomplished"), and postmodern deconstructionism results from God confusing the language. As Gene Veith put it, "Modernists did not believe the Bible is true. Postmodernists have cast out the category of truth altogether. In doing so, they have opened up a Pandora's box of New Age religions, syncretism, and moral chaos."

If you're interested and you've got the time, D.A. Carson's book The Gagging of God is probably the best treatment of the subject, of which I'm aware (it's the best treatment of many subjects, In my humble opinion). Gene Veith's book Postmodern Times is also useful, and shorter (it's where I got the above quote). I'd also recommend the David Wells trilogy. A compilation book called Telling the Truth edited by Carson might also be helpful, since you could pick and choose which chapters sound helpful and interesting or not.

Or, if you don't feel like reading, the Desiring God National Conference '06 DVDs on The Supremacy of Christ in a Postmodern World are fantastic: http://www.desiringgod.org/Store/DVDs/ByTopic/All/700_The_Supremacy_of_Christ_in_a_Postmodern_World/

 

[Mathetes]

Relativism is a consequence of postmodernism, but it is not postmodernism.

Better put, postmodernism states that all truth claims are merely language constructs.

Doesn't that come, more or less, from Wittgenstein?

 

[toddpedlar]

If you're interested and you've got the time, D.A. Carson's book The Gagging of God is probably the best treatment of the subject, of which I'm aware (it's the best treatment of many subjects, In my humble opinion).

I second this one... Carson (while certainly not trying to conserve paper and ink with his work) has a masterpiece in this book.

Hey, B.C. - I just noticed your tagline... say hi to Reid for me; it's been a very long time since I saw him last, after we moved out of the upstate. I was a postdoc at Cornell University, but had a little contact here & there with Reid before, when I was a grad student at Northwestern University. I miss the yearly Rochester Reformed Theology conferences I went to several of while in NY...

Todd

 

[Scott Shahan]

Postmodernism (while including the already mentioned aspects of relativism and deconstructionism) is also characterized by suspicion and skepticism of anything classified as "modern," which means really anyone/thing which makes claims of over-arcing objectivity or certainty regarding truth, which are seen as "power plays," an attempt at controlling the thoughts and behaviors of others, which is one of the few things viewed as (dare I say, absolutely?) immoral from within the framework.

The Tower of Babel has been used as a helpful metaphor: It's as if modernism built a prideful tower of so-called truth, certainty and knowledge on an unbiblical foundation ("Look at what modern man has accomplished"), and postmodern deconstructionism results from God confusing the language. As Gene Veith put it, "Modernists did not believe the Bible is true. Postmodernists have cast out the category of truth altogether. In doing so, they have opened up a Pandora's box of New Age religions, syncretism, and moral chaos."

If you're interested and you've got the time, D.A. Carson's book The Gagging of God is probably the best treatment of the subject, of which I'm aware (it's the best treatment of many subjects, In my humble opinion). Gene Veith's book Postmodern Times is also useful, and shorter (it's where I got the above quote). I'd also recommend the David Wells trilogy. A compilation book called Telling the Truth edited by Carson might also be helpful, since you could pick and choose which chapters sound helpful and interesting or not.

Or, if you don't feel like reading, the Desiring God National Conference '06 DVDs on The Supremacy of Christ in a Postmodern World are fantastic: The Supremacy of Christ in a Postmodern World :: Desiring God

I've been reading David Wells book "Above all earthly Powers" Christ in a Postmodern world .

 

[mvdm]

Or, if you don't feel like reading, the Desiring God National Conference '06 DVDs on The Supremacy of Christ in a Postmodern World are fantastic: http://www.desiringgod.org/Store/DVDs/ByTopic/All/700_The_Supremacy_of_Christ_in_a_Postmodern_World/[/QUOTE]


If you don't want to spend the $ on the DVD's, you can download the audio messages for free here:
http://www.desiringgod.org/Events/NationalConferences/Archives/2006/

I attended that conference, and while all the messages are worthwhile, I would highly recommend listening to Wells' introductory address explaining the problem of postmodernism. He draws on the themes of his latest book.

For what it's worth, Mark Driscoll's address is entertaining, and you will hear him do a a "smack down" on Rob Bell and Brian McLaren.

 

[Dieter Schneider]

Here is more on post-modernism (to me it's more like pre-Christianism):
1. McGrath
2. E Hulse
3. D A Carson
4. L Duncan, pt. 1 and pt.2
5. Audio
In essence - when God goes anything goes. The best summary I have come across is by Franky Schaeffer:
They began—I am my shepherd.
Then—Sheep are my shepherd.
Then—Everything is my shepherd.
Finally—Nothing is my shepherd.

 

[weinhold]

"Postmodernism" is a word that moderns use to describe burgeoning cultural changes that surround them to such an extent that they cannot really understand them.

 

[weinhold]

"Postmodernism" is a word that moderns use to describe burgeoning cultural changes that surround them to such an extent that they cannot really understand them.

Upon a second look, the comment I made above strikes me as rather snooty. All I really meant was that since postmodernity is still in its early stages, it has yet to be defined.

 

[VictorBravo]

"Postmodernism" is a word that moderns use to describe burgeoning cultural changes that surround them to such an extent that they cannot really understand them.

Upon a second look, the comment I made above strikes me as rather snooty. All I really meant was that since postmodernity is still in its early stages, it has yet to be defined.

I was starting to get afraid I was a "modern."