Prayer Books and Beads

[SolaScriptura]

Wow, fascinating timing. I was just arguing with one of my friends (an Anglican priest who serves as the rector of a church in CO)... The so-called Anglican Rosary was created in the 1980s. So spare me any talk about it being an ancient practice. Anything birthed in the 1980s is novel by definition, and this in particular smacks of the growing ecumenicism and pining after Rome that occurred in some of the mainline denominations at that time. Besides, its ridiculously derivative and an on-the-nose attempt to co-op something (the rosary) and "clean it up" for your purposes, but still be close enough to the original that you feel cool - and you want to mock evangelicals for having Halloween-like activities instead of Halloween itself? Hmmm.

 

[Theoretical]

The so-called Anglican Rosary was created in the 1980s.

That's just ridiculous. And it proves yet another example that unmoored modern Anglicanism is a liturgical scavenger that is like a pseudo-high brow candles and incense version of a Hobby Lobby decor section. Just as kitschy but with a pseudo-ancient vibe. "Live, Laugh, and Love, Liturgically"

To be clear, actual Prayer Book/classical Anglicans I respect as serious folks because they're anchored and principled. I just think all or most of them that aren't Anglo-Catholic have moved to the PCA here or IPC in the UK.

 

[omniavanitas]

As someone who used a komboskini before being Reformed, I would not recommend prayer beads of any sort. You don't need beads and repeating the same prayer X amount of times to enjoy God.

As for prayer books, I use both the BCP and Valley of Vision as devotional tools. The language of both have helped my extemporaneous prayer as others have said, and it's usually either quoting Scripture or offering a way to look at something in Scripture you might not have considered.

 

[darrellmaurina]

As Sam notes, this is the historic Reformed position. It says a lot that we have an Orthodox Presbyterian assuming that corporate recitation of prayer is the norm. It is not. It is not Reformed and comes to us from non-Reformed sources. The qualification here, however -- as Klaas points out -- is that the Dutch Reformed differ from the Anglo-Scottish Presbyterian tradition in not only allowing but MANDATING set prayers in the various liturgical forms.

What Sam Jer may or may not know, but Klaas does, is that while the Dutch did (and do) use set prayers, they were read by the minister or in some cases the elder leading worship in the absence of a minister, and the congregation did NOT recite them, but said "amen" at the end.

The two positions are not in full opposition to each other but are different implementation of a common principle that the minister or elder leads and the people respond.

Corporate recitation has no warrant in scripture. One man ought to lead, and the rest join in saying the amen.

Would you consider this only for the spoken prayers, or also for the singing (or recitation) of psalms?

Historically, the singing of psalms has been considered part of the ministry of prayers (Dutch: dienst der gebeden). For this reason, singing is mentioned in Chapter XXIII of the Second Helvetic Confession, which deals with prayers.

 

[Claes Jacob Heijndericksz]

As Sam notes, this is the historic Reformed position. It says a lot that we have an Orthodox Presbyterian assuming that corporate recitation of prayer is the norm. It is not. It is not Reformed and comes to us from non-Reformed sources. The qualification here, however -- as Klaas points out -- is that the Dutch Reformed differ from the Anglo-Scottish Presbyterian tradition in not only allowing but MANDATING set prayers in the various liturgical forms.

What Sam Jer may or may not know, but Klaas does, is that while the Dutch did (and do) use set prayers, they were read by the minister or in some cases the elder leading worship in the absence of a minister, and the congregation did NOT recite them, but said "amen" at the end.

The two positions are not in full opposition to each other but are different implementation of a common principle that the minister or elder leads and the people respond.

Actually, it is something else.

Whether the prayers are fully free or set, they are conducted in the same manner. The prayers that are spoken are recited by the minister (or the elder leading the service), including the word ‘amen’ at the end. Strictly speaking, the congregation’s ‘amen’ and response to the prayer is the psalm that follows.
(The murmuring of the Lord’s Prayer by the congregation, which some churches have introduced in recent years, I find rather distracting and a bad habit without liturgical warrant.)

Corporate singing of psalms is a hallmark of the Reformed tradition. The issue that has troubled me, and which has arisen in the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands, is that because the singing of psalms are categorized as part of prayers, it has been abused to introduce hymns. Around 1930, free hymns were introduced because they were not forbidden in Scripture and because we already had set prayers led by the minister (which are not inspired by the Holy Spirit). This change was made despite the report submitted to the synod, which advocated their introduction on those grounds but also noted in its historical section that all churches that had previously introduced free hymns had done so to their own peril, particularly in times when they were spiritually sluggish.

 

[Andres]

eschew

 

[darrellmaurina]

We probably agree, Klaas.

I notice that you are in the PCN (Protestant Churches in the Netherlands), the merger of the NHK and the GKN with a small Lutheran body. In other words, what the Germans and some other Europeans would call a "United" church bringing together several different confessional traditions.

Sadly, things like the corporate recitation of the Lord's Prayer and use of hymns are far from the worst problems in the PCN. For Americans who are not used to the Dutch environment, the Dutch have a history dating back to the 1800s of tolerating conservative minorities, so you will find denominations that have ordained women for decades and tolerated open denials of the most basic principles of the Bible, but at the same time, there are churches within those denominations where women are expected to wear headcoverings and the preaching is very much according to a Puritan emphasis on personal conversion with a very traditional liturgy and exclusive or predominant psalmody. It's not like the PC(USA) where conservatives have been driven out by requirements to approve women's ordination and similar matters.

Would I be correct in guessing you are in the Gereformeerde Bond, originally organized within the NHK (the old state church), and many of its churches went into the merged PCN? I'm asking because I was surprised by the Synod 1930 reference, which sounds more like the GKN than the NHK. I cannot read Dutch and I'm well aware of the weaknesses of my theological training at Calvin here in the United States, as well as the weaknesses of my own memory of classes back in the 1980s, but I thought that the NHK had introduced hymns a century earlier and that the introduction of hymns was regarded as contrary to the Church Order of Dordt and cited as one of the grounds for the Afscheiding. I don't know much about it but I understand the GKN, even up to its merger with the NHK, still had a small conservative group within it.

Actually, it is something else.

Whether the prayers are fully free or set, they are conducted in the same manner. The prayers that are spoken are recited by the minister (or the elder leading the service), including the word ‘amen’ at the end. Strictly speaking, the congregation’s ‘amen’ and response to the prayer is the psalm that follows.
(The murmuring of the Lord’s Prayer by the congregation, which some churches have introduced in recent years, I find rather distracting and a bad habit without liturgical warrant.)

Corporate singing of psalms is a hallmark of the Reformed tradition. The issue that has troubled me, and which has arisen in the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands, is that because the singing of psalms are categorized as part of prayers, it has been abused to introduce hymns. Around 1930, free hymns were introduced because they were not forbidden in Scripture and because we already had set prayers led by the minister (which are not inspired by the Holy Spirit). This change was made despite the report submitted to the synod, which advocated their introduction on those grounds but also noted in its historical section that all churches that had previously introduced free hymns had done so to their own peril, particularly in times when they were spiritually sluggish.

 

[Reformed Catholic]

I agree with much of what has been said on this thread, and will add that incorporating parts of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer has led to a far richer and structured prayer life for me. A pastor once told me, repetition is inevitable. Either we will end up mindlessly repeating vain pious-sounding phrases in our "extemporaneous prayers" without any thought, or we will repeat well-thought out, historical and concise prayers such as the Collects from the BCP. No one crafts completely new prayers and phrases every single time they pray.

Of course, the most valuable prayer is deep heartfelt prayer, but to expect to have such an experience every morning and evening 365 days a year is bound to end in disappointment. Rather, I have found that having the structure of the BCP as a framework allows me to pray in a deep, Scriptural way even on days when my mind is empty and I don't "feel" like praying, and allows space for those deeper extemporaneous prayers when they are genuine.

I also try to pray through the Great Litany on Sundays, as I find that it is a helpful reminder to pray for things I would otherwise neglect praying for, such as widows, magistrates, those who are suffering, presbyters, etc..., occasionally adding extemporaneous specifics when applicable.

Collect for this week: KEEP, we beseech thee, O Lord, thy Church with thy perpetual mercy; and, because the frailty of man without thee cannot but fall, keep us ever by thy help from all things hurtful, and lead us to all things profitable to our salvation; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[a.k.pritchard]

To be clear, actual Prayer Book/classical Anglicans I respect as serious folks because they're anchored and principled. I just think all or most of them that aren't Anglo-Catholic have moved to the PCA here or IPC in the UK.

I'm from the UK; what's the IPC?

 

[Theoretical]

I'm from the UK; what's the IPC?

International Presbyterian Church - a denomination Francis Schaeffer founded. https://ipc.church/

 

[Claes Jacob Heijndericksz]

We probably agree, Klaas.

Darrell, I agree.

Would I be correct in guessing you are in the Gereformeerde Bond, originally organized within the NHK (the old state church), and many of its churches went into the merged PCN? I'm asking because I was surprised by the Synod 1930 reference, which sounds more like the GKN than the NHK. I cannot read Dutch and I'm well aware of the weaknesses of my theological training at Calvin here in the United States, as well as the weaknesses of my own memory of classes back in the 1980s, but I thought that the NHK had introduced hymns a century earlier and that the introduction of hymns was regarded as contrary to the Church Order of Dordt and cited as one of the grounds for the Afscheiding. I don't know much about it but I understand the GKN, even up to its merger with the NHK, still had a small conservative group within it.

Yes, but not strictly speaking, as I am not a member of the Gereformeerde Bond myself, (which is a national organization with human members). I have an subscription on their weekly magazine and I am a member of a congregation which supports the Bond and is called a 'Bondsgemeente'. My roots however lies in another denomination: the Gereformeerde Kerken (vrijgemaakt) (GKV).

In the Netherlands, if a random minister in a random protestant denomination sneezes, people in al denominations get the flu. So intertwined is our protestant church life. For this reason it is best to look beyond strict denominational borders. Take for example how men no longer stand during prayer in many reformed churches. Although it is adiaphora, there is no other reason for this widespread abandonment in multiple denominations during a single lifetime than churches and denominations mutually influencing each other.

The centennial remembrance of the Secession of 1834 was decorated with the decision of the synod of 1933 of the GKN to introduce free hymns. Both the fathers of the secession as those of doleance rejected those, although there had always some voices within the churches more positive for its introduction. This synod however was the first reformed synod in the Netherlands actually introducing free hymns themselves instead of trying to limit its usage because of crept in usage. It created a precedent. So currently not only the former GKN and its offshoots has hymns, but also many churches in the CGK and more recently it was introduced in congregations connected to the Gereformeerde Bond. Historically speaking reformed congregations in the NHK which (after the establishment of the Bond) would sing from the hymal would be considered tied to the Confesional Union (Confesionele Vereniging), and those who only sang from the psalter of 1773 tied to the Bond. Needless to say this Confessional Union became broadly evangelical somewhere in the previous century.

When the GKN and the NHK merged in the PKN the GKN didn't had any noticable conservatives or congregations. I wouldn't be surprised if the conservatism found at that time would be more similar to the conservatism of 'Redeemed Zoomer', than anything recognizable reformed.

 

[darrellmaurina]

Information appreciated -- and yes, we in the American context who are conservative Calvinists and deal with the Dutch are aware of Schilder and the 1944 Vrijgemaakt situation. The disruptions caused by 1944 continued in North America and led to all kinds of issues, not only the formation of the Canadian Reformed Churches but also disruptions in the Protestant Reformed Churches and ongoing issues in the Christian Reformed Church, as well as interaction with the secession that became the United Reformed Churches.

Partly due to geography, partly due to historical differences and patterns of ethnic immigration, and partly just because the United States is such a massively larger country than the Netherlands, it cannot be said that "if a random minister in a random protestant denomination sneezes, people in all denominations get the flu. So intertwined is our protestant church life." Many of our Reformed people aren't even aware of other denominations that are closely related to them in doctrine since they might never have any reason to see one of their ministers or one of their churches at any time in their life unless they were traveling through that area on the Lord's Day and looking for a church.

I'm not going to name the specific denomination or minister, but just how different the denominational context is in the US may be noted by saying that in a city half an hour away from me, when three families were interested in trying to begin a Reformed work because there is currently no church they can join, it was made VERY clear to me by a minister of one of the better-known conservative Reformed denominations that there would be no involvement -- even referral of names and phone numbers -- by him of people who he knew in that area unless any steps toward church planting would be under the auspices of his denomination. Certainly there are other ministers and denominations in NAPARC that would take a different view, but his view can fairly be summarized as saying, "We look out for our own denomination and aren't interested in taking time to deal with anyone who isn't interested in being part of us."

Most Reformed denominations in the US operate pretty much on their own, not because they hate or dislike each other, but just because there are no churches of that denomination anywhere close enough to ever come in contact.

The small size and dense population of the Netherlands is so different from the US that many people from the two countries aren't even aware of how different the church life is because of that difference in geography.

Darrell, I agree.

Yes, but not strictly speaking, as I am not a member of the Gereformeerde Bond myself, (which is a national organization with human members). I have an subscription on their weekly magazine and I am a member of a congregation which supports the Bond and is called a 'Bondsgemeente'. My roots however lies in another denomination: the Gereformeerde Kerken (vrijgemaakt) (GKV).

In the Netherlands, if a random minister in a random protestant denomination sneezes, people in al denominations get the flu. So intertwined is our protestant church life. For this reason it is best to look beyond strict denominational borders. Take for example how men no longer stand during prayer in many reformed churches. Although it is adiaphora, there is no other reason for this widespread abandonment in multiple denominations during a single lifetime than churches and denominations mutually influencing each other.

The centennial remembrance of the Secession of 1834 was decorated with the decision of the synod of 1933 of the GKN to introduce free hymns. Both the fathers of the secession as those of doleance rejected those, although there had always some voices within the churches more positive for its introduction. This synod however was the first reformed synod in the Netherlands actually introducing free hymns themselves instead of trying to limit its usage because of crept in usage. It created a precedent. So currently not only the former GKN and its offshoots has hymns, but also many churches in the CGK and more recently it was introduced in congregations connected to the Gereformeerde Bond. Historically speaking reformed congregations in the NHK which (after the establishment of the Bond) would sing from the hymal would be considered tied to the Confesional Union (Confesionele Vereniging), and those who only sang from the psalter of 1773 tied to the Bond. Needless to say this Confessional Union became broadly evangelical somewhere in the previous century.

When the GKN and the NHK merged in the PKN the GKN didn't had any noticable conservatives or congregations. I wouldn't be surprised if the conservatism found at that time would be more similar to the conservatism of 'Redeemed Zoomer', than anything recognizable reformed.

 

[Meguanz]

I use a set of wooden rosary beads from Jerusalem Rosary Beads sometimes. They help keep focus, but I try to change up my approach so it doesn’t become automatic—sometimes I add a short personal prayer or pause to reflect between beads.

 

[erickinho1bra]

I’ve found that using written prayers helps keep my mind from wandering. I don’t use beads, but keeping a prayer list or journal has really helped my focus during prayer time.

I started using a devotional liturgical book for my private worship. I think it is pretty similar to the Book of Common Prayer. It has been a very helpful tool structuring my time that can sometimes feel a little aimless. I don't think I'll be using prayer beads but I'm still not convinced they are anti-biblical though I see how they can be harmful or even dangerous.