Puritan Board and it's potential for edification

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by doulosChristou

Originally posted by pastorway
we cannot make the mistake of believing that change in theological positions automatically means that people are being sanctified. Sanctificiation does lead us into deeper understanding of the Word and will of God, but we cannot always equate change with growth.

In fact, it is also true that, as Greg rightly posted, we look to those who do not make major shifts, those who are mature in what they believe, as being able to provide reliable, stable leadership. It is difficult to follow a person who makes major changes in quick successsion, even if by quick we are looking at several years. Not to pick on Scott or Matt, but to use them as an example, as they seek a church that agrees with them in the area of EP, they will now have changed denominations, not just churches, but denominations 3 times in 3 years before this is all said and done. If they were at this time a pastor/elder they and their flock especially would be in for a rough ride.

Pastors especially are to be mature, stable, settled in the areas of major doctrinal stance. I am not saying that pastors cannot change, but if he does, especially in a major area, he needs wisdom and understanding in conveying that to his congregation. A sudden change in leadership is usually never good for the congregation as a whole.

And it is the CHURCH we are to be edifying ( "building up" ), not ourselves!! So when I say that the board has been more edifying in the past, I do not say that just about edifying me, but overall my concern is that things have become so narrow that those new to the reformed faith will not even know what we are talking about and certainly then the church is not being built up, but confused.

I tend to look at the board pastorally rather than personally - what benefit is this to the church corporately. And of late, in my opinion, it has been far from edifying.

Phillip

Thank you. You just articulated one of the points I was trying to make above, and you did a much better job of it. Also, "it is the CHURCH we are to be edifying ( building up ), not ourselves!"

So..............edification does not happen at a personal level? This board is not a church; this is not to say that the invisible as well as the visible is not edified. However, much like the exhortations to 'Rubn the race' etc. , many things happen at the personal level.

 

[pastorway]

so the board is not a place to build up the church, but only a place to come to edify ourselves???? That was the whole problem that Paul addresses in 1 Cor 12-14 - using gifts to edify self to the exclusion of the church. And that is an abuse and misuse of spiritual gifts.

First, some her emay not be understanding edification. Secondly, when the church is edified we are ALL edified.

Phillip

[Edited on 8-2-05 by pastorway]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by pastorway
so the board is not a place to build up the church, but only a place to come to edify ourselves???? That was the whole problem that Paul addresses in 1 Cor 12-14 - using gifts to edify self to the exclusion of the church. And that is an abuse and misuse of spiritual gifts.

First, some her emay not be understanding edification. Secondly, when the church is edified we are ALL edified.

Phillip

[Edited on 8-2-05 by pastorway]

Did I say that? I said:

So..............edification does not happen at a personal level? This board is not a church; this is not to say that the invisible as well as the visible is not edified. However, much like the exhortations to 'Rubn the race' etc. , many things happen at the personal level.

"this is not to say that the invisible as well as the visible (CHURCH) is not edified."

Clear? I was responding to the idea that edification does not happen at the personal level as well.

[Edited on 8-2-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[just_grace]

Fellowship...

Where 2 or 3 gather...

 

[blhowes]

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
...I wasn't implying that we should try to figure out why people are not edified. Its not that per se. Its more if you are not getting anything out of this then why stay? Its simple. I think I don't mean to be rude, but if you don't like it here or anywhere, why stay?

I think for me, the title of the thread says it all..."Puritan Board and it's potential for edification". There's an amazing potential for edification here at the board, not based on how I feel or whether or not I "like it here", but based on the caliber, learning, and Biblical focus of the people here. And the neat thing about edification is that it doesn't always come from the most seasoned or smartest in the group, it at times comes from those less "educated" and experienced.

Like myself, some of you may have come from a background characterized by this statement:

We're a fundamental, Bible Believing, Independent Baptist Church...

To me, posters on this board epitomize what I like best about that branch of the Christian church - you're Bible believing, and you take that seriously, farther than many fundamentalists do, and 'to the extreme' (in a good way). Even when things seem to get out of hand with some of the interactions, I just try and take it with a grain of salt and glean what I can. Its my impression that, for most, its much more than just a desire to win a debate that causes undo friction. I've learned at times to look past how something is said to try and see what valid things were said.

Scott's definition
ed·i·fy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-f)
tr.v. ed·i·fied, ed·i·fy·ing, ed·i·fies
To instruct especially so as to encourage intellectual, moral, or spiritual improvement.

Based on the definition provided by Scott, I think the board is (for me, anyway) edifying in different ways, some of which are more obvious than others. Most of you are either officers or members in a church that preaches the doctrines of grace, a church where you feel comfortable worshipping at ... and for that I am at times 'envious'. Your steadfastness in your church and your high opinion of Christ's church in general are very edifying for me, more in a moral/spiritual way than an intellectual way.

As many of you know who have been here for a while, I left a dispensational church several years ago for reasons I won't go into now. When I met with the pastor and deacons to talk about my leaving, one thing the pastor said proved to be oh so true. He said that if I leave the church, I'll have a hard time finding a good church. What an understatement that was!

To say the least, its been a very disappointing and frustrating time in my life, trying to find a church. The folks on the board, simply by virtue of your faithfulness to your churches and your desire to defend God's word, have been very edifying to me. I'll admit that there were stretches where I gave up looking, but threads about the Sabbath or one's commitment to their church encouraged me to start looking again. I praise the Lord for the edification I've received, and continue to receive here. Its definitely not a replacement for attending a church (nor is it intended to be), but it definitely does serve a much-appreciated purpose.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[LadyFlynt]

I'm not going to get into the arguements going on...just state what I've seen.

I found the board very edifying, especially as someone who was relatively new to covenant theology at the time I signed up.

I've been challenged to do my research and have learned about ppl and writings that I would never have heard about elsewhere.

You all have put up with me. I know some of you have wanted to hit the roof over my postings a few times, but have born with me through discussions. Because of this...I've been able to work out all the arguements and in several cases have been totally debunked and come to a better understanding of things...to the point of being able to make a change in areas that I thought I could never change in (baptism, the feasts, eschatology, etc).

Amidst the seeming sarcasm and "insults"...I've learned that, yes, we get passionate on this board...but unlike other boards most of us try to deal with the issue and not with personal attacks. And those that have made blatant personal attacks are dealt with. We do seem to eventually come to some agreement or at the very least a brotherly (and sisterly) understanding of the others position. This is charity. We get frustrated, but we work on working it out...rather than calling names and throwing in the towel. I know this seems trivial to some...but it's made it a safe place for many of us to come and discuss and learn.

Ppl here have learned to keep their humor. I think it's helped all of us. We're in this boat together.

Many of us have gotton to really know eachother...even if it is only virtual. Unlike most other boards, ya'll are REAL ppl to me. We discuss, we laugh, we cry.

I'm also thankful that we are here under these certain Confessions. This eliminates the constant bickering of other boards and I can fairly trust what is being said. However, I have also been thankful for the diversity of this board within those realms...that we can have differing views on some things and be able to have something to discuss.

I don't know if there is more I can say...just a great big thanks!

 

[BobVigneault]

I'm going to quote myself from another thread. (Have I no shame?)

Here's something to keep in mind. Debating and arguing do hone our debating skills but that is not the end we seek. We are seeking to learn and teach and preach the whole counsel of God. We are obligated by scripture to do that and yet because of the noetic effect of sin, we can never comprehend the whole counsel of God.

We do one another a tremendously valuable service by challenging, debating, arguing, and even knocking down the others observations for in doing so, we do procure more of God's counsel. To sharpen another's iron is to expand the bulk of our knowledge and hammer down and condense the best parts to a fine edged weapon - a weapon used to tear down strongholds and set captives free.

 

[JohnV]

How does one know whether his "iron" is being sharpened, or whether the hammereing at it is making it a ragged edge? Is it not the Word, the truth contained in it becoming living and active in our soul? Is it not that we come more into contact with Christ Himself when we read His Word, when we are in that communion with others who are in contact with Him also?

I think that is the question of "edification". Learning more it greart, gleaning off each other is great too. But all that is nothing if it doesn't bring us closer to our Saviour.

I came onto this Board from the opposite end of some of you. I come from a conservative orthodox, deeply Reformed setting, where catechism is taught to all the children of the church at an early age, where fathers teach their children at the supper table, proper church practice that was generations old. I can only imagine what it was like for men like Bob. But I don't see superiors and underlings here, I see equals. I am not disputing a previous post about responsibilities to each other; I agree with it. But this is a discussion Board. This is a lot different than a church setting. Some things go on on this Board that would not be condoned in a church setting, or at least should not be. But here we not only may, but we have to let our hair down when it comes to what we are thinking or believing. This is where the forum is to work things out. And sometimes it means that we are going to get what we didn't expect. We may react poorly at first, or overall, but that is also part of the edification process.

Its the nature of this Board to confront and to expose, both ourselves and each other, and hit closer to home than is normal. It's a discussion Board, a practically impersonal cyber discussion Board at that, for the purposes of discussing. We aren't going to settle any church problems here because we're not the church. But we are going say things here that we may not be willing to say in other venues. So we're going to get hit where it hurts.

For myself, I am in the battle of my life, and its getting to be too obvious that I am working it out here on the Board. I don't know what I would have done without all of you. I believe the Puritan Board is a Godsend. The timing, the issues, the people, everything, was just what I needed. There are some things I find so important as I go through this that I am dumping it on the Board members as well. That is why I have often contemplated leaving. But then I think about it, and realize that its not how important the Board is to me, or how important I may sometimes think I am to the Board, but how important our communion together is to Christ. He doesn't need us, and yet He treasures us, one and all. There is certainly a lot going on that He does not like. And yet He knew that already when He died on the cross for each of us who worship Him in spirit and in truth, before He called us in His infinite wisdom to commune together on this Board, before a watching world.

This Board has had a direct hand in bringing me closer to Christ. That means that this Board has been edifying for me.

I'm not giving a blank stamp of approval to everything that goes on. There's work to be done yet, I'm sure. But my focus is on the work that has yet to be done in me. And the Board is helping me out a lot. I only hope I've given even part of that back to the Board.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Could any of you put up with "discussion (if we could call it that) with Luther or Calvin, or would you have said "this is not edifying" and stomped off?

 

[JonathanHunt]

Okay..y..y..y

So I am ALLOWED to be a member here as I adhere to the 1689 Baptist confession.

Therefore I would not expect to be attacked and undermined for doing so!

If you (Presbyterian mods/owners) are so convinced of the Westminster Confession, then you should kick all the baptists off the board - but, as you would tell me, this is not what you want to do, and I would agree with you.

I really do feel that we as a group of people would be so much better served by focusing on what we have in common rather than by going down the covenantal (and governmental) alleyways all the time. Yes, I KNOW its very important to you, as it is to me, but these are differences that WILL NOT be reconciled. What the church has not resolved these past hundreds of years will not suddenly be solved by the writings of Dr McMahon!

So why not call an end to threads such as 'Baptists shouldn't teach their children to pray'? Why not call an end to presumptive, young, inexperienced, and frankly arrogant young men spouting off as if they had already BEEN to seminary and had some pastoral (or ANY) responsiblity in their lives? Many threads have been started with wrong motives, In my humble opinion - not people asking genuine questions, but people asking leading questions to get certain responses so that a long line of correspondents can pop in their and icons ad nauseum.

Why not call an end to the 'Baptists aren't reformed' comments and other such things?

Dr Matt has a whole website at his disposal, and dispose he will until he gets terminal keyboard cramp. He'll probably be buried with a keyboard, actually.

Let Dr Matt's doctrinal stances be, as they are, documented there, and so forth. Let him say there why he believes Baptists aren't reformed - that's fine. BUT Let US discuss those things which we hold dear, and in common - there are many articles on Matt's website which we never discuss, and we could.

Brother Kerry Gilliard has a site called theologicallycorrect.com. I believe that he has an impossible site name - perhaps it should be called moretheologicallycorrectandcertainlyascorrectasIcanbe.com?

We are not talking about false ecumenism here, and liberalism, we are talking about true biblical ecumenism, true fellowship, between those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity.

I don't want to feel like a second class citizen on this board, but that is how I DO feel. I feel despised, belittled, patronised. Maybe I'm over-sensitive.

Or maybe, just maybe, you owners need to go back to the drawing board, decide WHICH confessions you will admit, and having admitted those confessions, draw some clear lines about the spirit in which certain differences will be discussed, and MODERATE the uncharitable tendencies until the posters a) change, or b) leave.

Now for my

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Scott came up with a good analogy that I think works, and will explains how this board works.

The United States has a governmental structure made up of Republicans and Democrats, and some other smaller parties that we will simply eliminate for the sake the of the point.

Under the Banner of the United States Government (i.e. the government will be liked to the Puritanboard) you have two main groups - the Democrats and Republicans. These two groups are both political bodies under the banner of the country to make decisions and laws and such for the good of the commonwealth. They work as a team in that regard. However, they have different views that will never meet because of their political stance.

In the same way, the Puritanboard has two main groups - Presbyterian and Baptists, and just like the US government, also has a few others represented in varying denominations, but we will eliminate those as well for the sake of the discussion.

In the beginning, the board was about 50/50 Presbyterians and Baptists. Everyone was, as the registration page says, "under some level of harmony" in the discussion because it was, for all practical purposes, 50/50 in the discussions. Discussions at that point were very basic and elementally. Just like education, the level of conversation and the topics being discussed have augmented typically. One would expect this. Currently, the board is about 80/20, with the heavier side leaning toward Presbyterian.

Government parties agree on all sorts of things (to some level of harmony) under the banner of the US. Here, the same is true. But never shall the two parties become one party. Their political disciplines are at odds with each other. Does this make them any less family under that banner in which they both sit? No.

Think about it - the Baptists here all want us to become Baptists because their campaign is right. The Presbyterians all want the baptists to become Presbyterians because their campaign is right. That will never change.

The solution to the boards edification is the same as in the house or congress when they have one moderating the positions as they come up. With that moderation, and with order, any topic here can be edifying. Not everyone will like the topics, but not everyone is on the same page.

In the same way, our lines here on the board will never meet this side of heaven. It will not be until we reach heaven that this will change. (Then we'll all be Presbyterian!) (Sorry, when on the campaign trail, you always have to give it a plug!)

 

[doulosChristou]

Originally posted by webmaster
Currently, the board is about 80/20, with the heavier side leaning toward Presbyterian.

Does that include hanging chads? I demand a recount!

Since we Baptists are now in the minority, I think we need to start fillibustering some of these threads.

 

[Ravens]

I've been lurking on this board for two years or so, and I believe my total post count is under ten; two of the posts were about the Grateful Dead, so I don't even know if those count. :bigsmile:

I'm sure this board has its problems. All boards do.

However, bottom-line, where else are you going to go to find people so committed to the Scriptures and passionate about Reformed theology? Where else are people going to take the Bible so seriously that they have exhausting debates on exclusive psalmody? ExNihilo said on another board that, even in heated debates, it was good to be able to see the respective strengths of the different, firmly held positions.

Some people probably need thicker hides, and some people need to consider their tone, but the vast middle is probably fine & dandy.

I appreciate this place. Am I always in the mood for it? No. There are other things to do online. But there'd probably be a lot of us scratching our heads, drooling, and staring at a blank screen if we couldn't come here when we were in the mood.

Anyway, blessings.

Josh

 

[blhowes]

Originally posted by doulosChristou

Originally posted by webmaster
Currently, the board is about 80/20, with the heavier side leaning toward Presbyterian.

Does that include hanging chads? I demand a recount!

I don't know if I'm with you on this one. It may turn out to be 90/10 instead.

 

[satz]

Originally posted by Mudandstars
I've been lurking on this board for two years or so, and I believe my total post count is under ten; two of the posts were about the Grateful Dead, so I don't even know if those count. :bigsmile:

I'm sure this board has its problems. All boards do.

However, bottom-line, where else are you going to go to find people so committed to the Scriptures and passionate about Reformed theology? Where else are people going to take the Bible so seriously that they have exhausting debates on exclusive psalmody? ExNihilo said on another board that, even in heated debates, it was good to be able to see the respective strengths of the different, firmly held positions.

Some people probably need thicker hides, and some people need to consider their tone, but the vast middle is probably fine & dandy.

I appreciate this place. Am I always in the mood for it? No. There are other things to do online. But there'd probably be a lot of us scratching our heads, drooling, and staring at a blank screen if we couldn't come here when we were in the mood.

Anyway, blessings.

Josh

At the risk of incuring Mr Hunt's ire, let me add a

and just maybe an

Seriously, for all the problems this board has, and after reading all the posts i see there are a few, i can think of few better places to spend time on the internet ( work related sites not counted ).

After you get used to coming here its understandable that it might become annoying to see people banging on the same old drums day in day out...be it baptism, church government or as of late, EP. But go to most other christian forums on the 'net and you can chose from a wonderful array of topics like 'is abortion wrong?' 'Should we condemn buddhists?' 'is pre-marital sex always a sin'? Yeah...i know i am purposely pointing out the worse...but those are real topics i have seen before...and they were all in excess of 7 pages.

So while, yeah there are problems here, as there will be anywhere, we shouldn't miss the fact that there is a lot, i would tentatively say a lot more right with this site as well. I love the fact that everyone here is so biblically minded, and even when views that oppose mine are expressed, they normally give me something to think about at the very least, as opposed to simply being (forgive the langugue) opinionated rubbish.

 

[JonathanHunt]

Originally posted by satz

At the risk of incuring Mr Hunt's ire, let me add a

and just maybe an

Hunt-> <- satz

 

[LawrenceU]

With all due respect, Matt and Scott, I think that the analogy of political parties is seriously flawed. I am a baptist. Yet, I am not campaigning to have all of Christendom become baptists; nor am I campaigning to have all of Reformed Christendom become baptists. That is a terribly wrong focus. My campaign, and I propose it should be all ours, is to make disciples. Period. When we focus upon the body to make disciples like ourselves we are misuseing (sp?) the entire purpose of our gifts. Do I believe that credobaptism is correct? Certainly. Do I think it is my role to convince paedobaptists to my position? No, that is something I leave up to God as surely as I leave the results of my preaching up to God.

God help us if we think we are to convince each believer to line up with our rubric of personal theology. That will ulitmately lead to Phariseeism. We can discuss our difference in a charitable manner if we remember that God is sovereign over his body. Not us. Not synods. Not GA's. Not GC's. Not elderships. Not pastors.

Our campaign is against sin and Satan's influence in the world We each serve under the banner of Christ. No military unit is effective in the bar when it fights those of another branch. It only is effective on the battlefield-facing down the enemy.

The 'other camp' is not our enemy. Sin and Satan and the flesh are our enemies!

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Lawrence,

Do you think your view of the ordinance of Christ are the biblically closest? Why would you not want others to be as biblically close to Christ as you believe?

As Christ said, "The truth shall set you free." If that is true (and it is) then we are only sanctified and brought closer to Christ, and set at liberty, with the truth. Sanctification will only be possible through the truth. You would have to, by necessity of believing what you believe, believe it is the truth and want others to believe it.

 

[Augusta]

There is no perfect church this side of Glory so I don't know how we can expect there to be a perfect discussion board this side of Glory. I have been on a couple of discussion boards and this is by FAR the best I have seen.

The people here are much more intelligent for one. The conversation though sometimes a little heated is never outright rude or offensive. You find that on a lot of other boards. The conversation is always interesting.

The debates are the best thing about this board. As someone who was raised from a young age in a theological vacuum. I had been converted to reformed theology for several years but was so insulated in my arminian social circle that I didn't know ANYONE who was reformed. I just kept listening to RC on the radio. Then I came here and was introduced to the White Horse Inn. So now I had three inlets of reformed teaching.

It was here that I was able to find a church to go to. I didn't even know what church was what so hubby and I decided to find a church that held to WCF. That narrowed it down. Based on asking people on here and searching the internet we found our current church which is such a blessing.

I watched debates on here alot before I ever became involved in them. Seeing both side of an issue argued really helps you to see both sides. I was like a clean slate when I came to reformed theology. I got to see both sides of alot of different issues here. It was really helpful. My biggest leap was from credo to paedo. I did not think that would ever change. Then I watched both sides argue and I was also learning more about CT and I couldn't believe it when the switch was flipped on that. I never expected it.

As far as I am concerned this board was a literal Godsend. It was God's providence in my families life. Thank you Matt for starting this board!!!

There will always be debates on here. Even when we are worn out from debating a certain subject people start debating something else. Twice so far in this thread alone people have debated wether someones analogy was a good one!! What a crack up.

 

[pastorway]

I agre with Lawrence - there are not two political parties here, two camps. We are under one banner, the banner of Christ.

I also second what he has stated. I have never had as my aim the conversion of people from one denomination to another. I want to uphold the truth of the Word of God and make disciples. If in the course of that happeneing people change their views, okay. But I see no need to convert Fred to be a Baptist. God is using Fred right where he is.

This may be a fundamental issue here - why do we debate? If it is to present truth, fine. If it is to sharpen each other, fine. If it is to win debates, out argue, out think, out convince others, then we are just arguing for arguments sake and the Bible condemns that outright.

Yes there is heat in debate - but there is also to be love, esteeing others as better than self, self-denial, a desire to rightly handle the Word to God's glory, and a desire to build up the church.

I still go back to the fact that we are never told to edify ourselves. Edification is for those to whom we minister. It is the building up of the church.

Phillip

 

[LawrenceU]

Matt,
I agree with you, to a point. That point is this, and this I think is crucial, I must not see the thrust of theology to be that of winning other Christians to my position. And, in reality, are we not sanctified by the Holy Spirit? Are we not brought into closer communion with Christ by Him?

Yes, I would that everyone might have my enlightened understanding of God and his teaching! The entire world would be better off. :bigsmile: Seriously though, I understand what you are saying. But, I don't believe that it is my job to bring every believer to my position. I will espouse my convictions, and God will use it. Even with that I never expect that Godly sincere students of the word will by their study arrive at identical conclusions. History proves that it impossible. How do we function then given that? We must have charity with those that are within orthodoxy yet differ from us on nonessentials. Discussion of those nonessentials is good when it is done with humble spirits. It sharpens us. Discussion of nonessentials without humility is schismatic. But, we must always remember that we are discussion nonessentials. Camels go down all to easily at times!

Yes, the truth sets us free. But, what is that truth to which Jesus refers in Jno. 8.32? It is his Messiahship. He is contrasting their dependancy upon Abrahamic lineage for their relationship with God and the truth of his being Messiah. He was demonstrating that their view of Mosaic Law was a bondage. So, what is the message here. Is it that real freedom comes from a full understanding of the entire corpus of revelation? I certainly hope not, for then none of us will ever experience freedom.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Remember why the Westminster Assembly met:

1) for bringing the kingdoms to a more near conjunction and union

2) for reformation and defence of religion

3) the preservation of the reformed religion in the Church of Scotland, in doctrine, worship, discipline, and government, against our common enemies

4) the reformation of religion in the kingdoms of England and Ireland, in doctrine, worship, discipline, and government, according to the Word of GOD, and the example of the best reformed Churches.



I'm not trying to win, but simply making a point as to why the WA got togeher.

 

[pastorway]

the WA is not the end all of sound theology. The whole reason we have the 2nd LBCF (taking so much from the Savoy Declaration) was to show how much Baptists and Presbyterians had in common, not to show how much they had in differences! The confessions were there to unite the church, not divide it.

Phillip

[Edited on 8-3-05 by pastorway]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by pastorway
the WA is not the end all of sound theology. The whole reason we have the 2nd LBCF (taking so much from the Savoy Declaration) was to show how much Baptists and Presbyterians had in common, not to show how much they had in differences! The confessions were there to unite the church, not divide it.

Phillip

[Edited on 8-3-05 by pastorway]

Phillip,
Who was involved in the penning of the LBC? Were the divines of the WCF involved? Did they advocate it? Two different confessions divide; you cannot escape this fact.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

There is an automatic tension built in to the Puritan Board by virtue of the fact that members may subscribe to more than one historic Reformed creed. Typically, that inevitably leads to differences of opinion on such issues as baptism, church polity, worship, etc. That makes for lively debate and -- given the rules and purpose of the Board -- provides an opportunity for cross-denominational fellowship and edification which does not always happen in other contexts. So, I am thankful for this opportunity to fellowship with my brethren from different denominations and creedal backgrounds, while I recognize that we are simply not going to all agree on all things. I do believe that creeds have a dual purpose, which includes both unity and division in matters of faith, worship and practice (see Hodge and Gentry). I am persuaded that the 1646 WCF is the basis for church unity par excellence. I am also grateful for the contributions of the 3FU as well to the edification of the church. The Savoy and LBCF, being primarily derived from the WCF, are very solid too, though I of course hold to Presbyterian principles. If the PB was a church, the allowance for multiple creeds would be a matter for confusion. Here on the PB it makes for built-in tension at times, but also, I think, gives us an opportunity to say where we are coming from (within a generally historically Reformed framework) and, by God's grace, put into practice what we all want to see in terms of the unity of the church (John 17). Let us recognize that there are limitations here on this Board but also great potential. In understanding that reality and that promise, I hope the PB can be a source of great edification for us all, no matter what our creedal affiliation.

[Edited on 8-3-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[BobVigneault]

Amen and Amen Andrew!

 

[Augusta]

Andrew.

 

[JohnV]

Originally posted by LawrenceU
Matt,
I agree with you, to a point. That point is this, and this I think is crucial, I must not see the thrust of theology to be that of winning other Christians to my position. And, in reality, are we not sanctified by the Holy Spirit? Are we not brought into closer communion with Christ by Him?

Yes, I would that everyone might have my enlightened understanding of God and his teaching! The entire world would be better off. :bigsmile: Seriously though, I understand what you are saying. But, I don't believe that it is my job to bring every believer to my position. I will espouse my convictions, and God will use it. Even with that I never expect that Godly sincere students of the word will by their study arrive at identical conclusions. History proves that it impossible. How do we function then given that? We must have charity with those that are within orthodoxy yet differ from us on nonessentials. Discussion of those nonessentials is good when it is done with humble spirits. It sharpens us. Discussion of nonessentials without humility is schismatic. But, we must always remember that we are discussion nonessentials. Camels go down all to easily at times!

Yes, the truth sets us free. But, what is that truth to which Jesus refers in Jno. 8.32? It is his Messiahship. He is contrasting their dependancy upon Abrahamic lineage for their relationship with God and the truth of his being Messiah. He was demonstrating that their view of Mosaic Law was a bondage. So, what is the message here. Is it that real freedom comes from a full understanding of the entire corpus of revelation? I certainly hope not, for then none of us will ever experience freedom.

Lawrence:

I know that you are saying this in reference to the political parties analogy. But that aside, I agree with you about convictions, essentials and non-essentials. I would only add to this that we have to recognize that even the most learned of us has but a smattering of the whole truth. Some of the differences, I believe, are there by God's design, so that we do not become proud of our beliefs. If I believe that, for example, credo baptism is wrong, I still have to answer the very difficult question as to why some credo baptists are indisputably God's elect children. The question automatically turns on itself, and points to me: I know I am saved, but that doesn't make me right in everything I believe. So it is evident that there is a lot to work out. And it would be best if God's children worked them out under the mutual respect of each other, and having the Word as the only true guide.

As someone pointed out to me once, whenever you point your finger at someone else, three other of your own fingers are pointing back at you. In other words, we should be humble in our views, bold in the truth, and steadfast in our convictions.

 

[JasonGoodwin]

Originally posted by webmaster
I have a serious question -

5 people voted that the PB is NOT edifying.

Why are you still here if it is not edifying?
I somewhat do not understand that.

I'm looking for consctructive criticism to make the board better, so I ask this in all sincereity.

Matt, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Even when I can't reply to what someone said here, I can always read what was said and put things into perspective.

(Even though I'm replying to what you said), sometimes it's best for me not to reply, but to read.

 

[JasonGoodwin]

Originally posted by webmaster
I have a serious question -

5 people voted that the PB is NOT edifying.

Why are you still here if it is not edifying?
I somewhat do not understand that.

I'm looking for consctructive criticism to make the board better, so I ask this in all sincereity.

Now it's up to 13 not edifying. How could this be?