Question for Presbyterians
- Thread starter panicbird
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[quote:3341fdd3b8]Actually, yes I would mind, because we have another incorrectly cited verse being used to further one's argument.
[/quote:3341fdd3b8]
The point was that the Lord adds to the church, so it was not incorrectly cited. When speaking of this group particularly though, it is clear from the context that they did profess and were baptized into the visible church.
[/quote:3341fdd3b8]
The point was that the Lord adds to the church, so it was not incorrectly cited. When speaking of this group particularly though, it is clear from the context that they did profess and were baptized into the visible church.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Gabriel,
In regards to your charge that I have used the Matthew verse erroneously...you never answered this question in regards to this passage:
Here it is again:
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
The term "child" or children is the Greek paidiou. Here is Gerhardt Kittels definition:
http://www.semperreformanda.com/kittelpaedo.htm
You will see that Christ is saying that even those at the breast belong to the Kingsdom of God!
Who does the scriptures reference when the term 'kingdom of God' is mentioned? Where is the kingdom of God? Is it here? Is it now? Who is included in the kingdom of God?
In regards to your charge that I have used the Matthew verse erroneously...you never answered this question in regards to this passage:
Here it is again:
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
The term "child" or children is the Greek paidiou. Here is Gerhardt Kittels definition:
http://www.semperreformanda.com/kittelpaedo.htm
You will see that Christ is saying that even those at the breast belong to the Kingsdom of God!
Who does the scriptures reference when the term 'kingdom of God' is mentioned? Where is the kingdom of God? Is it here? Is it now? Who is included in the kingdom of God?
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Gabriel,
Were these who were converted leaders of their housholds?
Or, in other words, did Luke follow the same pattern of preciseness that the OT continues to follow in recording the heads of households?
Seems to me they were following Acts 2:38. God was blessing this, and they counted those heads. (To understand what I am getting at, check any of the OT geneological entries that have a census on the people. i.e. Joseph is counted, not Mary. Etc.) Did Luke understand this and continue, or did he count as Americans do?
I think Americans have a tendency to read the Bible in American rather than Jewishly.
Peter did speak to "men and brethren" correct?
Were these who were converted leaders of their housholds?
Or, in other words, did Luke follow the same pattern of preciseness that the OT continues to follow in recording the heads of households?
Seems to me they were following Acts 2:38. God was blessing this, and they counted those heads. (To understand what I am getting at, check any of the OT geneological entries that have a census on the people. i.e. Joseph is counted, not Mary. Etc.) Did Luke understand this and continue, or did he count as Americans do?
I think Americans have a tendency to read the Bible in American rather than Jewishly.
Peter did speak to "men and brethren" correct?
JohnV
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Gabriel:
You don't really need me to add to what has been said so far. I just want you to know that in wrestiling with the same issues it is clear to me that the Credo view comes up worse in really answering those questions, as far as I can see. Which view is more sure to us? If we remember that a profession of faith is no more sure than a child's baptism, (I do [u:d164a157da]not[/u:d164a157da] grant that those who profess faith are more likely to be elect), for the simple reason that it is God who elects and not man that chooses, then all that is in our hands, as church, is to recognize those as Covenant members that the Word of God tells us to include. By making a mistake the church has not added to or diminished the number of the elect. But she has been obedient to God's directive as a ministry of His Word to His people; all of them, and not just the ones that we are willing to acknowledge.
The Credo view, with all due respect, just does not cut it in the very questions or objections they have concerning the Paedo view. It has a tendency to leave those things hanging. We just do not know, regardless of which baptism we practice, who is and who is not of the elect. Even of those long dead, whom we regard as pillars in the church, we only assume their election. There is no more certainty in the Credo view than in the Paedo view, except that the Paedo view is certain of children being included in the Covenant community. It just cannot be denied; exactly the same as it cannot be denied that those who sincerely profess their faith are included in the Covenant community. This we are certain of, though we cannot be certain of their election, as that is beyond our limited scope. And the sacrament is to be applied to all those within the Covenant community, [i:d164a157da]according to the matter signified and sealed by each.[/i:d164a157da]
Let's just remember that baptism signifies no assurance whatsoever where there is no sincere faith in the parents. But how we define sincere faith may not be how God defines it. God sees the heart, whereas we only see the outward display of the inward faith. It can very well be that what we regard as too little faith is seen by God as sufficient faith, or vice versa. The professions that fool the church are the ones that appear the most sincere at first. Yet all the same, the church is called upon to believe all professions of faith, all vows, and all promises, unless they are overtly insincere. The only ones that come in doubt are man's, and then only after the fact, but not God's promises.
You don't really need me to add to what has been said so far. I just want you to know that in wrestiling with the same issues it is clear to me that the Credo view comes up worse in really answering those questions, as far as I can see. Which view is more sure to us? If we remember that a profession of faith is no more sure than a child's baptism, (I do [u:d164a157da]not[/u:d164a157da] grant that those who profess faith are more likely to be elect), for the simple reason that it is God who elects and not man that chooses, then all that is in our hands, as church, is to recognize those as Covenant members that the Word of God tells us to include. By making a mistake the church has not added to or diminished the number of the elect. But she has been obedient to God's directive as a ministry of His Word to His people; all of them, and not just the ones that we are willing to acknowledge.
The Credo view, with all due respect, just does not cut it in the very questions or objections they have concerning the Paedo view. It has a tendency to leave those things hanging. We just do not know, regardless of which baptism we practice, who is and who is not of the elect. Even of those long dead, whom we regard as pillars in the church, we only assume their election. There is no more certainty in the Credo view than in the Paedo view, except that the Paedo view is certain of children being included in the Covenant community. It just cannot be denied; exactly the same as it cannot be denied that those who sincerely profess their faith are included in the Covenant community. This we are certain of, though we cannot be certain of their election, as that is beyond our limited scope. And the sacrament is to be applied to all those within the Covenant community, [i:d164a157da]according to the matter signified and sealed by each.[/i:d164a157da]
Let's just remember that baptism signifies no assurance whatsoever where there is no sincere faith in the parents. But how we define sincere faith may not be how God defines it. God sees the heart, whereas we only see the outward display of the inward faith. It can very well be that what we regard as too little faith is seen by God as sufficient faith, or vice versa. The professions that fool the church are the ones that appear the most sincere at first. Yet all the same, the church is called upon to believe all professions of faith, all vows, and all promises, unless they are overtly insincere. The only ones that come in doubt are man's, and then only after the fact, but not God's promises.
just_grace
Puritan Board Freshman
You guy's really bash into it 
Jesus said "you must be born again"...also things like " all that You give Me will come to Me"...and... "I will lose nothing of what you have given Me" ( Judas excluded ...poor man ) ...thats it. We all know His words on those who think they are His and are not.
The Lord knows those who are His.
By their fruits you shall know them.
Some do well, others not quite so well and still others through the flames.
Sometimes I wonder why people make a meal out of basic Christian teaching.
Thats what I love about Paul, he is so positive...no doubts about anything. When I read the Church fathers stuff...its not quite the same.
As Christians, God wants us to be strong, not full of doubts but full of His Holy Spirit.
It's a New and Living Way. How New and Living is it to you or I and if not WHY?
David
quote]Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Gabriel
Please answer the question; lts not difficult or even tricky.
Does professing faith in Christ prove one's position in the Lord? Does discipleship equate with regeneration?
Oh and by the way, the only reason I cited the verse in Acts was because you had previously mentioned that our intention should be to aquire professions of faith prior to placing someone into the church; my citing was to convey, that no matter how many men, men place into the church, God is the onee whom adds those whom are truly elect. [/quote]
Jesus said "you must be born again"...also things like " all that You give Me will come to Me"...and... "I will lose nothing of what you have given Me" ( Judas excluded ...poor man ) ...thats it. We all know His words on those who think they are His and are not.
The Lord knows those who are His.
By their fruits you shall know them.
Some do well, others not quite so well and still others through the flames.
Sometimes I wonder why people make a meal out of basic Christian teaching.
Thats what I love about Paul, he is so positive...no doubts about anything. When I read the Church fathers stuff...its not quite the same.
As Christians, God wants us to be strong, not full of doubts but full of His Holy Spirit.
It's a New and Living Way. How New and Living is it to you or I and if not WHY?
David
quote]Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Gabriel
Please answer the question; lts not difficult or even tricky.
Does professing faith in Christ prove one's position in the Lord? Does discipleship equate with regeneration?
Oh and by the way, the only reason I cited the verse in Acts was because you had previously mentioned that our intention should be to aquire professions of faith prior to placing someone into the church; my citing was to convey, that no matter how many men, men place into the church, God is the onee whom adds those whom are truly elect. [/quote]
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