Rap Music

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BobVigneault

Bawberator
I thought I'd start a new thread because I didn't know the Brian Schwertly thread was really about rap music.

My knee jerk response to rap music is that it's not really music and anyone can do it. However, I think that response comes from a reaction to the present and miserable condition of hip hop/rap.

Rap started out as a medium to give young african americans a voice. Being excluded from other forums such as print and tv they turned to rap. The wonderful thing about early rap was these young people really did have things to say, important things, things worth being told.

Unfortunately rap was eventually taken over by the 'gangsta'. We've ended up with super-macho, over-sexual, perverted, violent noise that lacks nearly any redemption.

The guys over at crossmovementrecords.com are trying to bring rap back to it's roots. James Johnson (Black Puritan) turned me on to these guys as a Christian alternative to what my daughter had been listening to.

The lyrics are as powerful as the beat. I particularly like Lecrae and his debut album. Give this stuff a try. I draw inspiration from Lecrae's heartfelt testimony. Call it rap, music or just 'spittin' on the mic', I like it and blessings on these fellows for trying to redeem the right use of words.
 
I was never a big fan of rap (still not). I do recall some interesting detours on the musical journey of my life, however (spoken like Mr. Holland):

1980 -- Blondie, Rapture
1986 -- Beastie Boys, (You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (To Party!)
1986 -- Run DMC, Walk This Way
1989 -- Public Enemy, Fight the Power
 
It's great seeing you in cyber print again Andrew. I wouldn't call those songs rap. Those were all crossover pieces designed to try and capture a white audience and make rap mainstream. It worked but I still wouldn't classify those tunes as 'rap'. Run DMC were rap artists but the song you mention was a fusion.
 
I try to shy away from this discussion, because I really don't care much for rap/hip hop music. I think a few people have done some interesting things with it, but overall the industry is corrupt and contemptible. That doesn't mean there couldn't be good rap music though. The same thing could be said about any popular music. It's all watered down and market driven, with only a handful of artists with real musical intergrity making it into the mainstreem.

Two examples of very creative rap acts are Kanye West and Outkast. Sadly it is almost impossible to digest their music due to the vulgarity of the lyrics. But I think you have to expect that from what is largely a pagan culture. For that reason, it is best for Christians not to simply dismiss rap and try to ignore it as if it is not noteworthy. It illustrate the spiritual needs of a large segment of our culture.
 
Originally posted by BobVigneault
It's great seeing you in cyber print again Andrew. I wouldn't call those songs rap. Those were all crossover pieces designed to try and capture a white audience and make rap mainstream. It worked but I still wouldn't classify those tunes as 'rap'. Run DMC were rap artists but the song you mention was a fusion.

OK, so does Southpaw's "Baby Got Book" count? :D

I think Public Enemy's crossover material ("Bring the Noise," 1991) postdates "Fight the Power," although Spike Lee helped make them famous to the white audience.

Anyways, that's my limited exposure to rap music.

[Edited on 3-9-2006 by VirginiaHuguenot]
 
And speaking of rap. I like listening to Matisyahu, the Hasidic Jewish reggae artist. He observes the Sabbath and sings songs that are reminiscent of the Psalms, "I look to the sky where my help comes from...." But he is a hebrew.

Can I like this artist and still be true to my neo-puritan convictions? More accurately, can I openly like this guys music or will it have to be a secret vice? :sing:
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Originally posted by BobVigneault
It's great seeing you in cyber print again Andrew. I wouldn't call those songs rap. Those were all crossover pieces designed to try and capture a white audience and make rap mainstream. It worked but I still wouldn't classify those tunes as 'rap'. Run DMC were rap artists but the song you mention was a fusion.

OK, so does Southpaw's "Baby Got Book" count? :D

I think Public Enemy's crossover material ("Bring the Noise," 1991) postdates "Fight the Power," although Spike Lee helped make them famous to the white audience.

Anyways, that's my limited exposure to rap music.

[Edited on 3-9-2006 by VirginiaHuguenot]

You asked for it

Verse 1
I like big Bibles and I can not lie
You Christian brothers can't deny
That when a girl walks in with a KJV
And a book mark in Proverbs
You get stoked
Got her name engraved
So you know that girl is saved
It looks like one of those large ones
With plenty o' space in the margins
Oh baby, I wanna read witcha
Cause your Bible's got pictures
My minister tried to console me
But that Book you got makes ("M-m-me so holy")
Ooh, momma-mia
You say you want koinonia
Well, bless me, bless me
And teach me about John Wesley

I saw her prayingWhile I was DJing
She got grace...pretty face
She ain't goin' down to the bad place

I'm tired of heathen guys
Sayin' they like pocket-size
Ask the average Christian to take a look
She's gotta pack much Book

So...Fellas (Yeah), fellas (Yeah)
Has your girlfriend got the Book (Oh yeah!)
Well, read it (Read it!), read it (Read it!), read that Holy Book
Baby got Book

Chorus
(NIV with a ribbon bookmark)
Baby got Book
(NIV with a ribbon bookmark)

Verse 2
I like 'em leather and bound
It's 50 pounds
I just can't understand
How it is, some weenie
Wants the Bible on CD
She wanna get you saved
Amen! Double up! A-men!

I ain't talkin' about a paraphrase
Cuz Paul wouldn't use those anyways
like 'em real thick and red-letteredYou can't find nothin' betterSouthpaw's in love
Bibles that big are unheard of

So I'm sittin' here thinkin' "What if...
I find me a girl that shows midriff?"
You can have those bimbos
I'll keep those chick that do devos
A word to the Christian sistas
I can't resist yaI'll do God's time witcha
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna pray
Til the break of day
Baby, got it goin' on
Like the wife in Pro-verbs 31

We just might get engaged
When we finish reading this page
Cuz it's worn and it's torn
And I know this girl's reborn

So ladies (yeah), ladies (yeah)
Do you wanna save people from Hades (yeah) Then read it...'til the pages fall out
Even white preachers got to shout
Baby got Book

(Thompson Chain with big red letters)
Baby got Book

Yeah baby
When it comes to a good book
Stephen King's resume just can't compare
39 + 27 = 66 books
And if you're Catholic...there's even more

So your girlfriend quotes Bill Hybels
But does she got a big Bible?
Cuz that little things she's got won't start a revival
My Bible study don't want none,Unless you got Book, Hon

...You can read Clancy or Grisham
But please don't loose this Book

Some brothers wanna play that hard hard role
And tell you that Book's too old
So they toss it and burn it
And I pull up quick to just learn it
So your girl likes paperback? Well I ain't down with that
Cuz my girlfriend's hot her Bible's rockin'
And she's got good doctrine
To the atheist chicks who try to dis
You ain't it Miss Priss
Give me a Christian, I'm insistin'
And I'll greet her with some holy kissin'
Some pervert tried to chase But he didn't make it past first base
She's quick to resist temptation
And she loves a new translation
So ladies who were lost and found
If you want the triple-six thrown down
Dial 1-800-reads-a-lot
And teach me about those Psalms
Baby got Book
 
I think it was Dooyeweerd, [though it may have been Kuyper,] that talked about a distinction between structure and direction.

How does this apply to music? In music this would mean the words were designed to glorify God and lift up Jesus.
The music itself should be structured in such a way to reflect the order and perfection of God's creation; thereby bringing glory unto God.
Some periods of music reflect this order better then others.
The Baroque period is characterized by richness of proportion, variations on a theme that result in a highly ornamented melodic line, and rich counterpoint. Bach and Handel both sought to glorify God in their music and their structure also brought credit to their intent.
The Classical period is characterized by concise melodic expression That leaves one with a sence of clarity and order.
The direction of the music of the Free Mason, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, was not designed to glorify God but its structure did so. Likewise Ludwig von Beethoven did not seek to glorify God in 'Ode to Joy' but his music did so.
I have no doubt that some 20th and 21st Century Composers seek to glorify God. I question the medium they use to express their art.
 
Originally posted by yeutter
I think it was Dooyeweerd, [though it may have been Kuyper,] that talked about a distinction between structure and direction.

How does this apply to music? In music this would mean the words were designed to glorify God and lift up Jesus.
The music itself should be structured in such a way to reflect the order and perfection of God's creation; thereby bringing glory unto God.

As if on cue:
http://lampmode.com/lifthimup.ram

:up::up:
 
I'm 99.9% sure that Flame on Cross Movement records is reformed. Flame raps about God's irresistible Grace! Also, his recomended reading list on his website is mostly reformed except for Hank Hanagraaff. However, Cross Movement the group is Calvary Chapel.:down:
 
I will probably be labeled intolerant but I see "christian" rap music as nothing more than an interjection of secular persuasions on Christian minds. Up until 2 years ago I had no objections to it. I figured that was their way of glorifying God in a culture they could identify with. Now I see rap as a medium that began in the secular, worldly hearts of unregenerate men. Its original intent was not to extol God, but was a political platform, one meant to vocalize the anguish of a culture that were the victims of social injustices. While these events were unfortuante it does not take away from the position it hold today. therefore I could not support it without going against what I believe to be true about it, namely there being nothing sanctifying or edifying about it (although I am aware some may differ from my position). It had its origins in the world and thats where it belongs. I have a friend who knows a few "christian" rappers and he understood my arguments as he observed first hand the emulation of carnal rappers by "christian" rappers. Does that glorify God?

:2cents:
 
Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist
I will probably be labeled intolerant but I see "christian" rap music as nothing more than an interjection of secular persuasions on Christian minds. Up until 2 years ago I had no objections to it. I figured that was their way of glorifying God in a culture they could identify with. Now I see rap as a medium that began in the secular, worldly hearts of unregenerate men. Its original intent was not to extol God, but was a political platform, one meant to vocalize the anguish of a culture that were the victims of social injustices. While these events were unfortuante it does not take away from the position it hold today. therefore I could not support it without going against what I believe to be true about it, namely there being nothing sanctifying or edifying about it (although I am aware some may differ from my position). It had its origins in the world and thats where it belongs. I have a friend who knows a few "christian" rappers and he understood my arguments as he observed first hand the emulation of carnal rappers by "christian" rappers. Does that glorify God?

:2cents:

What if God has given someone the talent to rap or produce or dj or breakdance or.... Then what? Should they allow their talent in this art form to waste away until they are to old to use it or should they use these things as a platform to present the gospel?
 
Originally posted by faydawg67117
Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist
I will probably be labeled intolerant but I see "christian" rap music as nothing more than an interjection of secular persuasions on Christian minds. Up until 2 years ago I had no objections to it. I figured that was their way of glorifying God in a culture they could identify with. Now I see rap as a medium that began in the secular, worldly hearts of unregenerate men. Its original intent was not to extol God, but was a political platform, one meant to vocalize the anguish of a culture that were the victims of social injustices. While these events were unfortuante it does not take away from the position it hold today. therefore I could not support it without going against what I believe to be true about it, namely there being nothing sanctifying or edifying about it (although I am aware some may differ from my position). It had its origins in the world and thats where it belongs. I have a friend who knows a few "christian" rappers and he understood my arguments as he observed first hand the emulation of carnal rappers by "christian" rappers. Does that glorify God?

:2cents:

What if God has given someone the talent to rap or produce or dj or breakdance or.... Then what? Should they allow their talent in this art form to waste away until they are to old to use it or should they use these things as a platform to present the gospel?

My dear brother in Christ, I believe you are mistaken. Just because a man makes an argument that he has a talent and in this he should use it to glorify God is in my opinion fallacious reasoning. We must first clarify the venue in which we choose to present our "talents" to God. Many people have talents; this does not make them saved or their talent redeemable in the eyes of God. Rap was/is a venue in which to communicate thoughts and can be used to relay the Gospel, but it does not mean that it is appropriate to offer to God simply because you perceive it to have the semblance of righteousness. Rap is from the world; there is no denying this proposition and God would have us not to emulate the world. Tell me if rap is not of the world, where did it have its origin? What kind of people does rap appeal to? Do these people retain secular values and images? that is why the scripture says:

2 Corinthians 6:17 Therefore, "'Come out from among them, and be separate,' says the Lord.'Touch no unclean thing. I will receive you.

James 4:4 You adulterous l people, don´t you know that friendship with the world m is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

:)

[Edited on 3-20-2006 by fivepointcalvinist]
 
I agree for the most part! The reason I asked these questions is becuase I have that "talent" and these are questions I ask myself. The reason right now that I put listening to Christian rap or using my "talent" on hold is that a) we are to abstain from even the apearance of evil and to many rap appears evil and b) after contemplating this issue it occured to me that when I was in the world I remember people doing very worldly things very well but I know those things could NOT glorify God in any way. For example, I had a friend who could roll a blunt and drive at the same time (doing both very well). An amazing ablity no doubt! But could that be used to glorify God? The answer is NO of course not. I am still working this issue out in my own life and am pretty much undecided on what I will do FOR THE LONG RUN. However as far as the debate goes in my own mind your position is currently winning! Some more questions to consider are... Our children... What if they want to listen to this kind of music? Should they grow up STRICTLY on psalms and hymns and nothing else or would it be ok if they listened to... And if it is ok they listen to other music besides rap or rock where does that music originate from? Is it not the world? So where do you draw the line just at rap or rock? I know jazz for example (at least in the lifestyle that was attached to it) could be very worldly. What went on at jazz clubs back in the day? ALOT of sin! Jazz too is/was rebellious and yet many Christians will put down rap and then put on some Benny Goodman or Django. I understand that preachers preached against jazz back in the day. So, 50 years from now will we have preachers leaving rap alone while the elderly and others appreciative of that artform listen to it and then attack what is more culturally relevent at that time? Probably. This is what we have today. Preachers will attack rock or rap when they leave jazz alone (people still listen to jazz young and old alike). And what about classical was it designed with God in mind or no? I'm not sure of the history there maybe you are. And what about world music reggae, soca, african drums.... They were not designed to glorify God. Would they be ok? I'm just not sure how far I want to take this. How far do you take it?
Just for some more clarification... I was not trying to test you or anything by withholding information on where I stand on this in the previous post. When I added the previous post my wife was calling me for dinner. So, I didn't have time to elaborate and just left it as it was so as to get a quick response. Thank you for your response and I hope that we as well as others will be edified through this thread!

Blessings,
Brian

[Edited on 3-20-2006 by faydawg67117]
 
Originally posted by faydawg67117
I agree for the most part! The reason I asked these questions is becuase I have that "talent" and these are questions I ask myself. The reason right now that I put listening to Christian rap or using my "talent" on hold is that a) we are to abstain from even the apearance of evil and to many rap appears evil and b) after contemplating this issue it occured to me that when I was in the world I remember people doing very worldly things very well but I know those things could NOT glorify God in any way. For example, I had a friend who could roll a blunt and drive at the same time (doing both very well). An amazing ablity no doubt! But could that be used to glorify God? The answer is NO of course not. I am still working this issue out in my own life and am pretty much undecided on what I will do FOR THE LONG RUN. However as far as the debate goes in my own mind your position is currently winning! Some more questions to consider are... Our children... What if they want to listen to this kind of music? Should they grow up STRICTLY on psalms and hymns and nothing else or would it be ok if they listened to... And if it is ok they listen to other music besides rap or rock where does that music originate from? Is it not the world? So where do you draw the line just at rap or rock? I know jazz for example (at least in the lifestyle that was attached to it) could be very worldly. What went on at jazz clubs back in the day? ALOT of sin! Jazz too is/was rebellious and yet many Christians will put down rap and then put on some Benny Goodman or Django. I understand that preachers preached against jazz back in the day. So, 50 years from now will we have preachers leaving rap alone while the elderly and others appreciative of that artform listen to it and then attack what is more culturally relevent at that time? Probably. This is what we have today. Preachers will attack rock or rap when they leave jazz alone (people still listen to jazz young and old alike). And what about classical was it designed with God in mind or no? I'm not sure of the history there maybe you are. And what about world music reggae, soca, african drums.... They were not designed to glorify God. Would they be ok? I'm just not sure how far I want to take this. How far do you take it?
Just for some more clarification... I was not trying to test you or anything by withholding information on where I stand on this in the previous post. When I added the previous post my wife was calling me for dinner. So, I didn't have time to elaborate and just left it as it was so as to get a quick response. Thank you for your response and I hope that we as well as others will be edified through this thread!

Blessings,
Brian

[Edited on 3-20-2006 by faydawg67117]

i think you yourself are aware of the implications rap music brings upon the bearer. you have made some valid points, ones that i can tell you have poured alot of time and thought into and i applaud you. this, in my opinion, shows that you are concerned about the quality of your offering to God, so be encouraged to pray, and pray some more. i myself was once a "christian" rapper living in sin with no substantial relationship with Christ, and was not aware of the implications of rap music on christian life until Christ removed the scales from my eyes. so part of me persuading you to use your gift in another venue to glorify Christ is somewhat personal for me. if you have a gift and truly seek to use it to glorify God, God will provide you with the appropriate means to achieve it, as long as its conducive to His will revealed in sound biblical doctrine, but remember to PRAY!

:pray2: :handshake:
 
That's what the fundamentalist deliverance preacher told us kids at camp. Then he told us to go home and take our rock and roll records and make a big bon fire in the back yard. I think his words were, "RIGHT OUT OF THE SATANIC JUNGLES OF AFRICA".
 
Originally posted by BobVigneault
That's what the fundamentalist deliverance preacher told us kids at camp. Then he told us to go home and take our rock and roll records and make a big bon fire in the back yard. I think his words were, "RIGHT OUT OF THE SATANIC JUNGLES OF AFRICA".

Bob,

How's your rap album coming? You might consider switching to Jewish Regae - I hear it's all the rage now...;)
 
Here is a good little primer on some "lyrical theology". These are some podcasts that feature some excellent Holy Hip Hop. Podcast #3 is my favorite because it starts with Christcentric doing The Reformation, still gives me goosebumps when Luther yells, "It's the truth!"

#5 is short on music because there is a long message by Ambassador about Hip Hop culture and the gospel. But his song "Oh Wretched Man" is worth the download just to listen to it.

Come on guys, broaden your idiom. Give it a listen, Get crunk! If ya know yer reppin' Jesus go ahead and throw it up!


http://feeds.feedburner.com/blazin-faith
 
Originally posted by crhoades
Originally posted by BobVigneault
That's what the fundamentalist deliverance preacher told us kids at camp. Then he told us to go home and take our rock and roll records and make a big bon fire in the back yard. I think his words were, "RIGHT OUT OF THE SATANIC JUNGLES OF AFRICA".

Bob,

How's your rap album coming? You might consider switching to Jewish Regae - I hear it's all the rage now...;)

:lol::banana:
 
Originally posted by BobVigneault
And speaking of rap. I like listening to Matisyahu, the Hasidic Jewish reggae artist. He observes the Sabbath and sings songs that are reminiscent of the Psalms, "I look to the sky where my help comes from...." But he is a hebrew.

Can I like this artist and still be true to my neo-puritan convictions? More accurately, can I openly like this guys music or will it have to be a secret vice? :sing:

From the Associated Press:

Hasidic artist embraces secular stardom

05/26/2006

At a music festival that included the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Kanye West, Tool and even Madonna, a Hasidic Jewish reggae singer was arguably one of the most popular acts on the bill.

Matisyahu, aka Matthew Miller, has gone from underground curiosity to mainstream star in the course of a year.

The 26-year-old ultraconservative Orthodox Jew, who grew up nonreligious in White Plains, New York, saw his groove-filled "Live at Stubb's" album on indie label jdub catapult up the charts.

In March, his major label debut "Youth" became a huge crossover hit for its combo of mock Caribbean chants, hip-hop beats and soul-searching religious lyrics.

He also became a father "” welcoming the birth of his son Laivy, now 8 months old.

Sitting in an air-conditioned trailer just before performing in front of more than 20,000 half-naked, sun-baked fans at the Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival, the 6-foot-3 singer "” wearing the traditional long beard, white shirt and black pants of Hasidic men, plus a pair of hip Puma sneakers "” chatted with The Associated Press.

With a soft-spoken intensity opposite of his high-energy onstage persona, he discussed spirituality, parenthood and fame, and balancing being Orthodox within the mostly secular world of music.

AP: A sociologist once said that "music is the kids' religion." How do you reflect on that?

Matisyahu: In terms of the idea of music being like religion, the two are obviously bound up with each other. From a Jewish perspective, music was used in the temple. The temple was the place where the revelation of God was actually present ... In every religion and culture, music has been used for the purpose of opening people up in order to sense the spiritual, to sense something which transcends this world.

AP: When you perform at a place like Coachella, in front of thousands of people, is it spiritual?

Matisyahu: There's a spirituality whether you're on stage in front of 25,000 people, or whether you're in a living room with your friend playing guitar ... People come to a music festival like Coachella to look for some kind of break out of the mundane. That's what music is supposed to offer to people. That's my goal.

AP: What has the last year been like for you?

Matisyahu: A year ago, I think we were touring, maybe playing some college shows. Basically, 'Live at Stubb's' had come out. It was just starting to get radio play. We were going through the summer touring festivals and playing shows. The record started taking off, doing well. A lot has changed.

AP: How do you balance a child, a young son, with playing music?

Matisyahu: It's a balancing act, but everyone has a balancing act. Having a child, there's absolutely nothing like it in the entire world. Not performing a concert, not owning any car, not being successful at anything, no amount of fame or money. There's nothing like the reward of having a child. You realize how much your parents loved you.

AP: Do you play your music for your son?

Matisyahu: Yeah, I do sometimes. At first, when he was a really small baby, he would cry. And I would turn the music on pretty loud. That would get him to stop crying. I don't really play it for him that much now. Maybe in the car. I dance with him sometimes, if he's in a bad mood, or if he's kvetchy. I'll pick him up and I'll do some song and dance with him. He loves that.

AP: How do you feel about the secular music community embracing your albums?

Matisyahu: It was never a question ... I grew up listening to secular music, going to see concerts and shows. My first concert was the Grateful Dead. I was about 3 years old. I went with my parents, in Northern California ... The first concert I went to on my own was Bruce Springsteen, the "Tunnel of Love" tour, in the '80s ... I guess growing up, I knew I was a Jewish person, but I didn't relate to my experience. My experience isn't what you would call a Jewish experience. But from the time I was little, I imagined myself making music, playing music. The fact that the audience that likes the music is not necessarily Jewish does not come as a surprise.

AP: There are Orthodox tenets you're supposed to follow, like not performing with nonreligious women in public. Does that apply today, performing on the same stage as female-fronted bands such the Yeah Yeah Yeahs and Sleater-Kinney?

Matisyahu: I probably wouldn't go see them. Unfortunately, there are some really wonderful female singers I wouldn't see ... The law is that a man is only supposed to hear his wife singing. The idea being that the female voice is a very holy thing ... I adhere by that pretty much.

AP: But do you fully agree with that law?

Matisyahu: No, I don't necessarily agree with it. To me, I don't consider the female voice to be that sexual. It can be, but in a lot of cases I don't think it is. For example, I was on an airplane watching TV, and Natasha Bedingfeld was on. I watched it, and I was intrigued by it, from a professional standpoint. She was performing her hit song, but with an acoustic guitar player and three back-up gospel singers. It was amazing. The thought of sexuality didn't cross my mind at all. So I don't necessarily agree with it all the time.

I guess part of the law is creating a fence. It doesn't always make that much sense in the moment, but it might protect you from falling into the wrong places. In general, that's part of the Jewish religion, or adhering to any religion, in an Orthodox way. You adapt yourself to it, and you take it into yourself as well. Mostly when people go through the world they adapt everything to themselves instead of submitting to the greater thing.
 
de gustibus non est disputandum






As for me......can there be such a thing as Christian yodeling!!!


NO WAY....






..it's straight out of the Demon-filled glaciers of Switzerland!!!
 
Originally posted by BobVigneault
Here is a good little primer on some "lyrical theology". These are some podcasts that feature some excellent Holy Hip Hop. Podcast #3 is my favorite because it starts with Christcentric doing The Reformation, still gives me goosebumps when Luther yells, "It's the truth!"

#5 is short on music because there is a long message by Ambassador about Hip Hop culture and the gospel. But his song "Oh Wretched Man" is worth the download just to listen to it.

Come on guys, broaden your idiom. Give it a listen, Get crunk! If ya know yer reppin' Jesus go ahead and throw it up!


http://feeds.feedburner.com/blazin-faith

:lol: Get crunk?:lol: Do you moonlight as a comedian?

[Edited on 6-8-2006 by Joseph Ringling]
 
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