RC Sproul has stunned me...

[timmopussycat]

Also...I have a problem with scripture saying if I don't forgive others, I won't be forgiven. Things happened decades ago. I was grievously wronged. I don't care to re-visit the situation. Why would anyone be required to do over and above what God Himself will not do...like on Judgment Day. I'm NOT bigger than He!

I agree that one does not need to reconcile with one who has sinned against me and is not repentant.

But Christ has commanded that if you don't forgive others you won't be forgiven. Because God has forgiven you much more than the "grievous wrong" you mention, Christ expects you to forgive that wrong out of the experience of having received the greater forgiveness yourself. (Matt. 18:23 - 35)

This does not get the other person "home scot free" or "off the hook". God is just, the judge of all the earth will do right, and that sin or series of sins WILL be judged. Either that person will pay the penalty or Christ will but in the meantime you are not meant to carry the burden of the sin which you will if you do not forgive it. And carrying unforgiveness is experienced by an unforgiving Christian whether the person concerned is a brother or not. So I don't think we are allowed not to forgive if a pagan sins against us.

 

[nicnap]

The Nazis at the door is an oft-cited example of a justification to lie. I do not believe that lying is justified there, for one very simple reason. The people who cite it as an example always do so with only 2 options: lie, and save the Jews, or don't lie, and let them get killed. There is a third option. That option looks like this: hide the Jews extremely well, and then don't answer the Nazis directly, but instead invite them to search the house. After all, they're going to search the house anyway, so a lie will hardly be a protection. In other words, you gain NOTHING by the lie. Sidestepping the question is not a lie. Just politely ask them to satisfy themselves as to whether there are Jews in the house.

Other situations might have a slightly different look. For the obvious killer searching your house in order to kill your family, I would say that this is what shotguns are for. It is the husband/father's responsibility to protect his family, and he must be willing to die for his family. I would not answer the question, but instead attack him directly.

Rahab is commended for her reception of the spies. She is not actually commended for her lie. The same is true of the Hebrew midwives. Were there other options for them? Rahab could have done something similar to the option I gave above concerning the Nazis. The Hebrew midwives could have told the truth. They might have suffered for it. Of course, there is another possibility: the Hebrew midwives might have been telling the truth! Or they might have "delayed" getting to the Hebrew women giving birth so that they would not be telling a lie.

Yep.

 

[earl40]

Now as Josh pointed out the relationship to killing one who may lawfully be killed in a war or by the magistrate is allowed by Our Lord. Is it permissible to lie as Elisha did in that they were at war.

2 Kings 6:19 19 And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria.

 

[Miss Marple]

If it is the law in Nazi Germany not to hide Jews, and you disobey and hide them, are you not in fact practicing deception? Is this not a type of lie?

If you weren't being deceptive, you'd put their name on the mailbox, allow them to go freely in and out the front door, etc. They'd sit at your dinner table.

So hiding them is deceptive in the first place. It's a type of lie.

I don't think it's a sin though.

Some on this thread say, don't make some sins ok. I don't think those of us defending the lie in re the Jews or threatened family are trying to say "sin is ok in these circumstances." I think we are saying, "it is actually not a sin in these circumstances."

Just as killing someone is usually a sin - there are circumstances when it is not. They are rare and difficult circumstances, but still, they exist.

 

[earl40]

Whether it was a lie or no, distinctions should be considered:

1. Elisha was acting as a prophet, not a private person. Is any of us a prophet, receiving the secret commands of God? Answer carefully.

The answer to your question is no, of course not.

My question was Elisha acting as a prophet of God to the Arameans by having Elisha lie to them?

Or was this account a lie to lead the army away a sin like Rahab's? If so my question is mute because we do not have God commending Elisha's possible lie.

2. Even if Elisha were guilty of lying in this instance (and Matthew Henry intimates that it was not a lie), that would not make it permissible for us whose duty is to obey God's revealed will (in all its implications and applications).

Now I can live with that in that there is no need to assume Elisha was not a sinner. Of course I really do not know for sure that he lied because you say Matthew Henry insinuates such though I do not see the insinuation in his commentary. Of course this may be because of my sin.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Of course I really do not know for sure that he lied because you say Matthew Henry insinuates such though I do not see the insinuation in his commentary. Of course this may be because of my sin.

"When they were thus bewildered and confounded he led them to Samaria (v. 19), promising that he would show them the man whom they sought, and he did so. He did not lie to them when he told them, This is not the way, nor is this the city where Elisha is; for he had now come out of the city; and if they would see him, they must go to another city to which he would direct them."


Src: Henry, Matthew. Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible: Complete and Unabridged in One Volume. Peabody: Hendrickson, 1994. Print.

 

[earl40]

Of course I really do not know for sure that he lied because you say Matthew Henry insinuates such though I do not see the insinuation in his commentary. Of course this may be because of my sin.

"When they were thus bewildered and confounded he led them to Samaria (v. 19), promising that he would show them the man whom they sought, and he did so. He did not lie to them when he told them, This is not the way, nor is this the city where Elisha is; for he had now come out of the city; and if they would see him, they must go to another city to which he would direct them."


Src: Henry, Matthew. Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible: Complete and Unabridged in One Volume. Peabody: Hendrickson, 1994. Print.

Thank you I had read the concise version. My sinful eyes have been opened to this.

 

[Grant Van Leuven]

For different views than Dr. Sproul’s on the topic of lying (the different views being the ones with which I agree and was influenced by while preaching on Exodus 1:15-22 regarding the Hebrew midwives, who I don't believe actually lied), and which touch on some of the sentiments that have already been well expressed above, especially by Fisher and the WLC, see the following:
• John Murray, “The Sanctity of Truth”, chapter 5 of Principles of Conduct: Aspects of Biblical Ethics (he interacts with a number of Scriptures after first discussing how one must always speak truth to reflect Christ).
• Gordon H. Clark, free MP3 audio lecture, “Questions and Answers”. This file is from a section heading on the Trinity Foundation’s website page for free MP3 audio lectures entitled, “Lectures on Theology, Gordon H. Clark, 5 Lectures”, under the subsection entitled, “Collection 9: Introduction to Theology”. In this lecture, Clark handles the issue of Situational Ethics as non-Christian and references John Murray, stating his agreement with Dr. Murray that it is never OK to lie. He discusses the "love" argument and handles some helpful case studies such as Rahab, Elisha (also, like the Hebrew midwives, not lying), and how one could have handled a Nazi trooper asking if you were hiding someone (if you were). An important qualification he gives is that concealing information is not the same thing as lying (sounds similar to Dr. Sproul’s context disclaimer, but I think not quite the same). The section in this lecture about lying specifically references the earlier lecture number 3 in this series, which is entitled, “The Puritans and Situation Ethics” (although lying is not dealt with directly in that lecture). The exact time range section of the Q&A lecture file pertinent to this discussion is from 1:50 to 10:58.

PS: I think your signature line actually is pretty relevant for the question: “Peace if possible, truth at all costs!” - Luther

 

[Afterthought]

If it is the law in Nazi Germany not to hide Jews, and you disobey and hide them, are you not in fact practicing deception? Is this not a type of lie?

I find Ames helpful in clarifying the concept of "lying." The answer to your question is "no." Whether lying should include the "intent to deceive" or not is another matter (Perkins includes it). From an old post I made.

"18. A lie is properly a testimony, whereby one pronounceth otherwise than is in his heart. Acts 5. Whence is that phrase in Scripture of a double heart, of a man that is a liar. Psalm 12:3.

19. But because a thing pronounced, doth not consist only in outward words, but chiefly in their sense; therefore the same words which are true in one sense, in another sense become a lie. Matt. 26:61.

20. Ironies, fables, jests, repeating also of false things, and the like are not lies, because they are not testimonies; and they are not testimonies because they are not confirmed by the credit and authority of the speaker.

21. An intention of deceiving, although it do almost always accompany a false testimony, yet it is not of the essence of it, neither is it necessarily required to a lie; for although one knows that he with whom he hath to do cannot be deceived by his lie; yet if he have an intention in speaking to affirm that which is false, he lies no less than if he had hope of deceiving.

22. An intention of hurting doth indeed increase the mischief of a lie: but it maketh not the nature of it: for if a man out of jesting or a desire to please and be officious, confirm that by his credit which he knows to be false, it is a lie: pernicious of its own nature, if not others, yet to the author himself: as it is in those who are given to flatteries or boastings, or are delighted in confirming monstrous fables or fictions unto others.

23. An intention to speak that which is false, makes a lie, although that which is spoken be most true.

24. The asseveration of a thing uncertain for certain, is accounted with a lie although we think it to be true.

25. Also that secrecy whereby one doth not speak the truth when Justice or Charity requires it, doth partake of the nature of a lie.

26. But when neither Justice nor Charity requires to give testimony, then the truth or part of it may be concealed without sin. Jerermiah 38:27.

29. That dissembling which consists in deeds or signs, and not in words, is not properly a lie: unless the same either of their own nature, or by some certain appointment, have the force and use of speech: as, 1 Sam. 20:20-22, Matt. 26:49. Because such deeds and signs that are not verbal, have no certain and determinate signification, so as they can have the force of a testimony.

30. Therefore such dissembling is sometime lawful, as in warlike stratagems. Josh. 8:31. But it is made unlawful when in respect of the end or manner, it fights with religion, Justice or Charity." (William Ames. The Marrow of Sacred Divinity)

 

[RamistThomist]

The Nazis at the door is an oft-cited example of a justification to lie. I do not believe that lying is justified there, for one very simple reason. The people who cite it as an example always do so with only 2 options: lie, and save the Jews, or don't lie, and let them get killed. There is a third option. That option looks like this: hide the Jews extremely well, and then don't answer the Nazis directly, but instead invite them to search the house. After all, they're going to search the house anyway, so a lie will hardly be a protection. In other words, you gain NOTHING by the lie. Sidestepping the question is not a lie. Just politely ask them to satisfy themselves as to whether there are Jews in the house.

Other situations might have a slightly different look. For the obvious killer searching your house in order to kill your family, I would say that this is what shotguns are for. It is the husband/father's responsibility to protect his family, and he must be willing to die for his family. I would not answer the question, but instead attack him directly.

.

Just musing: some ethicists would say not providing them with the truth is functionally the same, since you aren't giving them the truth. And if you tell the proverbial Nazis that they don't deserve the truth, you will probably end up in Bergen-Belsen.

 

[JimmyH]

To add a bit of levity to the question .......... My favorite 'lying' example was given by Mrs. Lillian Carter when her son Jimmy, was president of the USA. A reporter with the NY Times had come to interview Ms Lillian shortly after her son President Carter had told the American people, "I will never lie to you."

Ms Lillian greeted the female reporter cordially and the interview began. Somewhere along the line the reporter asked, "Does Jimmy ever lie ?"

"White lies," Ms Lillian replied. "What are white lies?", the reporter asked. Ms Lillian responded, "Well you know how I greeted you saying how happy I was to see you, and how lovely you look ? Those are white lies."

 

[jwright82]

Well I still think this whole discussion only points to the messiness of ethics. I would never try to to justify lying or any other sin biblically but when we are in such situations how would we act? I mean lying is lying is lying is lying and it is wrong no matter what but what do you do when you are put in a situation when you must choose to violate one or another of God's law, what do you do? We can in principle say never violate the law of God and this is true and ought to be our ultimate goal in lives.

But in practice this is not always so easy. It is easy to say you should do this but a little different when you have the gun to your head. We should always seek to obey God but recognize that because we live in a finite sinful world we will at times be faced with deciding to commit one sin or another, and BTW we all do this. It does not make it right though. But this fact only points us to our Lord Jesus who has come to save us from ourselves and this messy post-fall ethical situation we are in. It all points to Christ.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

To add a bit of levity to the question .......... My favorite 'lying' example was given by Mrs. Lillian Carter when her son Jimmy, was president of the USA. A reporter with the NY Times had come to interview Ms Lillian shortly after her son President Carter had told the American people, "I will never lie to you."

Ms Lillian greeted the female reporter cordially and the interview began. Somewhere along the line the reporter asked, "Does Jimmy ever lie ?"

"White lies," Ms Lillian replied. "What are white lies?", the reporter asked. Ms Lillian responded, "Well you know how I greeted you saying how happy I was to see you, and how lovely you look ? Those are white lies."

My father knew Jimmy Carter, and if he were still alive he would tell you that Jimmy Carter most certainly did lie

 

[JimmyH]

To add a bit of levity to the question .......... My favorite 'lying' example was given by Mrs. Lillian Carter when her son Jimmy, was president of the USA. A reporter with the NY Times had come to interview Ms Lillian shortly after her son President Carter had told the American people, "I will never lie to you."

Ms Lillian greeted the female reporter cordially and the interview began. Somewhere along the line the reporter asked, "Does Jimmy ever lie ?"

"White lies," Ms Lillian replied. "What are white lies?", the reporter asked. Ms Lillian responded, "Well you know how I greeted you saying how happy I was to see you, and how lovely you look ? Those are white lies."

My father knew Jimmy Carter, and if he were still alive he would tell you that Jimmy Carter most certainly did lie

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

To add a bit of levity to the question .......... My favorite 'lying' example was given by Mrs. Lillian Carter when her son Jimmy, was president of the USA. A reporter with the NY Times had come to interview Ms Lillian shortly after her son President Carter had told the American people, "I will never lie to you."

Ms Lillian greeted the female reporter cordially and the interview began. Somewhere along the line the reporter asked, "Does Jimmy ever lie ?"

"White lies," Ms Lillian replied. "What are white lies?", the reporter asked. Ms Lillian responded, "Well you know how I greeted you saying how happy I was to see you, and how lovely you look ? Those are white lies."

My father knew Jimmy Carter, and if he were still alive he would tell you that Jimmy Carter most certainly did lie

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Indeed. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Saying that we do not lie is evidence that we do lie.

 

[JimmyH]

To add a bit of levity to the question .......... My favorite 'lying' example was given by Mrs. Lillian Carter when her son Jimmy, was president of the USA. A reporter with the NY Times had come to interview Ms Lillian shortly after her son President Carter had told the American people, "I will never lie to you."

Ms Lillian greeted the female reporter cordially and the interview began. Somewhere along the line the reporter asked, "Does Jimmy ever lie ?"

"White lies," Ms Lillian replied. "What are white lies?", the reporter asked. Ms Lillian responded, "Well you know how I greeted you saying how happy I was to see you, and how lovely you look ? Those are white lies."

My father knew Jimmy Carter, and if he were still alive he would tell you that Jimmy Carter most certainly did lie

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Indeed. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Saying that we do not lie is evidence that we do lie.

TBH ..... I lie not .......... I never was fond of Jimmy Carter as president. Whether he ever lied or not I don't know. The purpose of the post was not to insinuate that he 'never' lied. Rather to demonstrate what a charming and witty lady his mother was.

 

[greenbaggins]

The Nazis at the door is an oft-cited example of a justification to lie. I do not believe that lying is justified there, for one very simple reason. The people who cite it as an example always do so with only 2 options: lie, and save the Jews, or don't lie, and let them get killed. There is a third option. That option looks like this: hide the Jews extremely well, and then don't answer the Nazis directly, but instead invite them to search the house. After all, they're going to search the house anyway, so a lie will hardly be a protection. In other words, you gain NOTHING by the lie. Sidestepping the question is not a lie. Just politely ask them to satisfy themselves as to whether there are Jews in the house.

Other situations might have a slightly different look. For the obvious killer searching your house in order to kill your family, I would say that this is what shotguns are for. It is the husband/father's responsibility to protect his family, and he must be willing to die for his family. I would not answer the question, but instead attack him directly.

.

Just musing: some ethicists would say not providing them with the truth is functionally the same, since you aren't giving them the truth. And if you tell the proverbial Nazis that they don't deserve the truth, you will probably end up in Bergen-Belsen.

Surely there is a difference between not telling someone something versus actually telling them a lie.

To answer Miss Marple, such a law would be a violation of the Ten Commandments, particularly the 5th and 6th, since the intention of such a law is to provide ways to kill them, and is also an abuse of authority. In fact, it would be requiring people to disobey those commandments. Therefore, hiding Jews in that context would be obeying a higher law than the Nazis could ever have manufactured.

 

[Bill The Baptist]

To add a bit of levity to the question .......... My favorite 'lying' example was given by Mrs. Lillian Carter when her son Jimmy, was president of the USA. A reporter with the NY Times had come to interview Ms Lillian shortly after her son President Carter had told the American people, "I will never lie to you."

Ms Lillian greeted the female reporter cordially and the interview began. Somewhere along the line the reporter asked, "Does Jimmy ever lie ?"

"White lies," Ms Lillian replied. "What are white lies?", the reporter asked. Ms Lillian responded, "Well you know how I greeted you saying how happy I was to see you, and how lovely you look ? Those are white lies."

My father knew Jimmy Carter, and if he were still alive he would tell you that Jimmy Carter most certainly did lie

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Indeed. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Saying that we do not lie is evidence that we do lie.

TBH ..... I lie not .......... I never was fond of Jimmy Carter as president. Whether he ever lied or not I don't know. The purpose of the post was not to insinuate that he 'never' lied. Rather to demonstrate what a charming and witty lady his mother was.

I understood what you meant. I didn't really think you were suggesting that Carter never lied, and it was an amusing anecdote. Sorry to derail your post, it's just that being from Georgia, the mention of that man tends to get my dander up.