CalvinandHodges
Puritan Board Junior
Hi:
On a different thread Jonathan Clemens asked of me a few questions. I started this thread because I did not wish to co-opt that particular thread. He wrote:
These are good questions. In partial answer to your first objection I will quote from C.H. Spurgeon's Commentary on Matthew 19:13:
How do infants "freely come into the kingdom of the Lord of heaven"? We are told in the previous verse that their parents brought them to Jesus. If Children and infants of godly parents can be considered members of the Kingdom of Heaven, then how can you refuse water baptism. If they are members of the Kingdom of Heaven, then should they not then be accounted as members of the Kingdom here on Earth? Which is greater Heaven or Earth?
The PB view is that children and infants are talked about as being members of the Kingdom of God. The CB view is that Jesus is using some kind of metaphor to state that unless you receive the Kingdom like a child or infant, then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. (It seems to me that if the CB view is all of what Jesus is talking about, then He is being unusually cruel to the godly parents who brought their children to Him to be blessed).
Spurgeon relieves the tension by saying that both views are correct. I agree with Spurgeon on this matter. The logic of Spurgeon's interpretation of this event favors the PB view that Children of godly parent(s) should be baptized.
This leads to your next objection concerning unbelieving spouses in 1 Cor. 7:14:
1) Children and spouses are in different relations to each other. Children are under their parents decision-making process. A spouse can make decisions on his/her own.
2) Though the Greek words describing the unbelieving spouse being "sanctified" and the child of a believing parent as "holy" carry the same root word - they do not mean the same thing. The unbelieving parent is hegiastai (Strongs, 37) or, "to make holy" by the believing parent. The child of the believing parent is "hagia" (Strongs, 40) or "holy" or "a saint." In reference to the unbelieving parent it is a ceremonial holiness. In reference to the child of a believing parent it is holiness - or being set apart. The use of the word "hegiastai" indicates an ongoing process:
a) In the Lord's prayer, Luke 11:2, "Hallowed be thy name." Not only now, but forevermore "holiness" be ascribed to Your Name, c.f. John 12:28.
b) The gold of the Temple and the gift thereon, Mat. 23:17.
c) Jesus is "sanctified" by the Father, John 10:36.
d) The believer is being "separated" from the world, John 17:17, 19.
3) The question comes to mind as to why the Holy Spirit, through Paul, used two different words? If the same thing were intended for the unbelieving spouse as it was for the child, then should not the same word be used for both?
4) The word "else" here indicates that Paul is addressing a question concerning the child rather than the unbelieving parent:
"Children of a believing parent must first come to faith before they can be considered holy."
There is no indication anywhere in the New Testament that the Church treated its children the way the CB position claims.
Grace and Peace,
-CH
On a different thread Jonathan Clemens asked of me a few questions. I started this thread because I did not wish to co-opt that particular thread. He wrote:
C&H
I have some Q's about the your following statments. I'm new to the P boards, and don't have much experience with reformed folk... so I'm not much up on this baptism debate .
Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges
Jesus says that the children of Godly parents are "members of the Kingdom of Heaven," Mt 19:13, Mk 10:13.
Could you please explain to me where you see this in the text?
Mathew 19
13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” 15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.
Mark 10
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”
It takes humility for a rabi such as Jesus halt His buisy schedule and recieve children. Is it possible that Jesus is telling His desciples that they have to humbly recieve the kingdome of God as they would have to humbly recieve a child?
Originally Posted by CalvinandHodges
1 Cor 7:14 - The faith of a believer sanctifies his/her spouse for the sake of their children who are then considered "holy." The word can also be translated "saint."
If we baptisme unbelieving children, should we not also baptise unbelieving spouses too?
Thanks
These are good questions. In partial answer to your first objection I will quote from C.H. Spurgeon's Commentary on Matthew 19:13:
It seems to me that the great Credo-Baptist (CB) teacher has no complaint against the Paedo-Baptist (PB) view on this text here, and, in fact, agrees with it. What is more interesting is what he says on verse 14:We see how gentle was our King in the fact that anyone thought of bringing boys and girls to him. Their friends brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and besow a blessing; and also lift up his hands to God, and pray for them. This was a very natural desire on the part of devout parents, and it showed much faith in the Lord's condescension. We feel sure that the mothers brought them, for still holy women are doing the same, pg. 264.
I will restate what Spurgeon says here, "Children, and those like them, may freely come into the kingdom of the Lord of heaven." Spurgeon underlines this point by stating that this is "the banner of the Sunday School." In the passage in Mark the word "infants" is used as well as "children."The Lord is more lowly than his servants. He bids them cease to hinder the little children; he calls them to himself; he declares that they are the very kind of people of whom his heavenly kingdom is made up. "Of such is the kingom of heaven" - this is the banner of the Sunday school. Children, and those like them, may freely come into the kingdom of the Lord of heaven; yea, these are the characters who alone can enter into that kingdom, pg. 264,265 bold mine.
How do infants "freely come into the kingdom of the Lord of heaven"? We are told in the previous verse that their parents brought them to Jesus. If Children and infants of godly parents can be considered members of the Kingdom of Heaven, then how can you refuse water baptism. If they are members of the Kingdom of Heaven, then should they not then be accounted as members of the Kingdom here on Earth? Which is greater Heaven or Earth?
The PB view is that children and infants are talked about as being members of the Kingdom of God. The CB view is that Jesus is using some kind of metaphor to state that unless you receive the Kingdom like a child or infant, then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. (It seems to me that if the CB view is all of what Jesus is talking about, then He is being unusually cruel to the godly parents who brought their children to Him to be blessed).
Spurgeon relieves the tension by saying that both views are correct. I agree with Spurgeon on this matter. The logic of Spurgeon's interpretation of this event favors the PB view that Children of godly parent(s) should be baptized.
This leads to your next objection concerning unbelieving spouses in 1 Cor. 7:14:
No. There are many different responses to this.If we baptize unbelieving children, should we not also baptize unbelieving spouses too?
1) Children and spouses are in different relations to each other. Children are under their parents decision-making process. A spouse can make decisions on his/her own.
2) Though the Greek words describing the unbelieving spouse being "sanctified" and the child of a believing parent as "holy" carry the same root word - they do not mean the same thing. The unbelieving parent is hegiastai (Strongs, 37) or, "to make holy" by the believing parent. The child of the believing parent is "hagia" (Strongs, 40) or "holy" or "a saint." In reference to the unbelieving parent it is a ceremonial holiness. In reference to the child of a believing parent it is holiness - or being set apart. The use of the word "hegiastai" indicates an ongoing process:
a) In the Lord's prayer, Luke 11:2, "Hallowed be thy name." Not only now, but forevermore "holiness" be ascribed to Your Name, c.f. John 12:28.
b) The gold of the Temple and the gift thereon, Mat. 23:17.
c) Jesus is "sanctified" by the Father, John 10:36.
d) The believer is being "separated" from the world, John 17:17, 19.
3) The question comes to mind as to why the Holy Spirit, through Paul, used two different words? If the same thing were intended for the unbelieving spouse as it was for the child, then should not the same word be used for both?
4) The word "else" here indicates that Paul is addressing a question concerning the child rather than the unbelieving parent:
The rapid growth of the Christian church in the first century would produce an abundance of questions for the Apostles. Clearly, the question of mixed marriages (one Christian, one unbeliever) would be brought up, 1 Cor. 7:12,13. But Paul continues and writes about the status of their children. This is a clear indication that Paul, and the 1st Century Church, were not under the CB conviction of "Believers Only." Because, if the children are now to be considered outside of the New Covenant, then there would be no question or answer concerning their status in the Church. Or, Paul's answer would be something like this:...the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband, else were your children unclean, but now they are holy.
"Children of a believing parent must first come to faith before they can be considered holy."
There is no indication anywhere in the New Testament that the Church treated its children the way the CB position claims.
Grace and Peace,
-CH