Rick Warren & Islam

[SolaSaint]

Rejecting truth for the sake of unity (OneNewsNow.com)

Here's one of the many links to the latest stories on Rick Warren pushing an alleged merger with Islam. It appears that Warren wants peace with Muslims and will not come out and say we worship two totally different gods. The journalist who wrote the story states Warren claims we serve the same God. But Warren hasn't made a public statement on this. Is his silence heretical? It should be easy to come out and state your doctines correctly if your in the position of "Americas pastor". I believe he's placed himself in a corner. If he says the God of scripture is the only God, then he alienates the Muslims and if he says we both worship the same God, then he's a heretic. I think he finally has ruined his run at syncretism.

 

[Pergamum]

Many evangelicals state that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God due to a shared monotheism but that Christians only know the true path to that God. This position may not be heretical, but it is wrong.

 

[rookie]

Many evangelicals state that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God due to a shared monotheism but that Christians only know the true path to that God. This position may not be heretical, but it is wrong.

Depending on their level of theological knowledge, it can be either ignorance (didn't study long enough, made a mistake, and will see it later and retract that view) or heretical (wants unity...but knows the difference)

 

[Curt]

Shameful!

 

[puritanbooks]

Christians follow Jesus, the Muslims follow who..?

 

[FenderPriest]

Just an fyi, Warren tweeted the other day: "If people tell me 'We worship the same God' I say 'Are you sure? My God is Jesus Christ & I believe God is Trinity'" (source). Similarly, "I never just accept what newspapers say about people. I've seen them get facts, quotes & reasons wrong far too many times."

 

[J. Dean]

To add to Jacob's post, apparently the news story about Warren and Islam is inaccurate. In fairness to Rick Warren, I'd like to hear him say something directly about this as well.

However, what's equally troubling to me about Rick Warren is his citation of Henri Nouwen: Sola Sisters: Why Is Rick Warren Quoting Universalist Henri Nouwen?

While I doubt that Warren is a universalist, it's just not good form to quote people who are seriously errant in their theology and not make any qualifying statements about that person.

 

[FenderPriest]

While I doubt that Warren is a universalist, it's just not good form to quote people who are seriously errant in their theology and not make any qualifying statements about that person.

Why? Not all things can be said at one time. We must be careful not to import too much meaning into a man's message when he spoken otherwise elsewhere.

 

[Marrow Man]

Christians follow Jesus, the Muslims follow who..?

Purtianbooks, welcome to the PB! Please fix your signature per the PB rules (click on the link in my signature below to see how).

 

[Rufus]

Christians follow Jesus, the Muslims follow who..?

No one; Muslim means "one who submits", to God, to the rule of the Koran, etc. Following Christ is to Christians as submitting is to Muslims.

 

[DMcFadden]

Remember that it it part of Warren's theological pedigree (as a D.Min. graduate from the school in Pasadena that must not be named) to believe in high levels of "dialog." Remember that the Prez of Warren's last school apologized to Mormons in Salt Lake for the sins of evangelicals against them and that he signed the letter to Muslims a couple of years back.

I don't know if you can read much into his commitment to dialog, other than he went to a progressive evangelical seminary for his D.Min. Whether this represents a strategy of engagement in order to present the Gospel of an act of capitulation and compromise would require something more than an apparently errant newspaper report.

I am no fan of some aspects of Rick Warren but do not want to knee jerk into condemning him based on ANYthing a reporter claims.

 

[DMcFadden]

Christians follow Jesus, the Muslims follow who..?

No one; Muslim means "one who submits", to God, to the rule of the Koran, etc. Following Christ is to Christians as submitting is to Muslims.

And herein lies the basis for some of the controversy over Wycliffe and Frontiers. They are in hot water for trying to use contextualized interpretations of Trinitarian language into more Muslim-friendly translations. This is also part of the effort by many Christian missionaries to use the name Allah and call themselves "Muslims" since they believe in "submitting" to God.

Honestly, my wife and I have provided modest financial support for a Wycliffe couple and a Frontiers couple for decades. It gives me pause to consider whether we should continue our support in light of the controversy.

 

[Jack K]

The journalist who wrote the story states Warren claims we serve the same God. But Warren hasn't made a public statement on this. Is his silence heretical?

I'm not a big Warren fan. But I trust him to be more theologically adept than the typical secular news reporter. IF the secular news report misstated his position or simplified it in a misleading way (not certain, but surely posible), I don't think silence from Warren is heretical or should even be thought of as error.

Christian ministers are not be required to issue clarifying statements every time a secular reporter gets something wrong. Not everything must always be debated in the media. Not every misunderstanding or misrepresentation must always be answered by defending ourselves. Just look at how Jesus lived.

 

[AThornquist]

The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him. Proverbs 18:17.

 

[Pergamum]

Christians follow Jesus, the Muslims follow who..?

No one; Muslim means "one who submits", to God, to the rule of the Koran, etc. Following Christ is to Christians as submitting is to Muslims.

And herein lies the basis for some of the controversy over Wycliffe and Frontiers. They are in hot water for trying to use contextualized interpretations of Trinitarian language into more Muslim-friendly translations. This is also part of the effort by many Christian missionaries to use the name Allah and call themselves "Muslims" since they believe in "submitting" to God.

Honestly, my wife and I have provided modest financial support for a Wycliffe couple and a Frontiers couple for decades. It gives me pause to consider whether we should continue our support in light of the controversy.

Dennis,

With all the needy groups doing good work, I cannot fathom why anyone would support Wycliffe/Frontiers at this present time. I think the best thing to do is to make them suffer a little until they mend their ways (Wycliffe has been recalcitrant on this issue, and has sent out letters stating that the accusations against them are "misleading" thus accusing other Christians who oppose these hyper-contextualizing practices as liars).

Also, I would not lump Christians who use the name Allah for the Christian God in with those that call themselves Muslims. There are several million Indonesian Christians that call God Allah and yet would never call themselves Muslims and know that Allah (generic) is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Rufus]

Also, I would not lump Christians who use the name Allah for the Christian God in with those that call themselves Muslims. There are several million Indonesian Christians that call God Allah and yet would never call themselves Muslims and know that Allah (generic) is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Doesn't the Arabic translation of the Bible use the word Allah for God the Father?

 

[Pergamum]

I think so. And the Indonesian bible does.

 

[Covenant Joel]

Also, I would not lump Christians who use the name Allah for the Christian God in with those that call themselves Muslims. There are several million Indonesian Christians that call God Allah and yet would never call themselves Muslims and know that Allah (generic) is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Doesn't the Arabic translation of the Bible use the word Allah for God the Father?

Yes...all of them that I know of. I don't know of a single one that uses any other word, since it was used by Arab Christians before Islam even existed.

 

[Pergamum]

Here is an update on this controversy:


Ed Stetzer - Rick Warren Interview on Muslims, Evangelism & Missions (Responding to Recent News Reports)

Here in the interview Rick sent me:

QUESTION: Do people of other religions worship the same God as Christians?

WARREN: Of course not. Christians have a view of God that is unique. We believe Jesus is God! We believe God is a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not 3 separate gods but one God. No other faith believes Jesus is God. My God is Jesus. The belief in God as a Trinity is the foundational difference between Christians and everyone else. There are 2.1 billion people who call themselves Christians... whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecostal, or Evangelical... and they all have the doctrine of the Trinity in common. Hindus, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unitarians, and everyone else do not accept what Jesus taught about the Trinity.

QUESTION: A recent newspaper article claimed you believe Christians and Muslims worship the same God, that you are "in partnership" with a mosque, and that you both agreed to "not evangelize each other." You immediately posted a brief refutation online. Can you expand on that?

WARREN: Sure. All three of those statements are flat out wrong. Those statements were made by a reporter, not by me. I did not say them ... I do not believe them... I completely disagree with them ... and no one even talked to me about that article! So let me address each one individually: First, as I've already said, Christians have a fundamentally different view of God than Muslims. We worship Jesus as God. Muslims don't. Our God is Jesus, not Allah. Colossians 2:9 "For in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Second, while we urge our members to build friendships with everyone in our community, including Muslims and other faiths, ("Love your neighbor as yourself"), our church has never had any partnership with a mosque. Friendship and partnership are two very different levels of commitment. Some of our members have hosted a Bible study with Muslim friends, which I applaud, but I've never been to it, and a Bible study certainly isn't any kind of partnership or merger! It's just crazy that a simple Bible Study where people explore Scripture with non-Christians would be reported as a partnership and others would interpret that as a plan for a new compromised religion. Just crazy! Third, as both an Evangelical and as an evangelist, anyone who knows me and my 40 year track record of ministry that I would never agree to "not evangelizing" anyone! I am commanded by my Savior to share the Good News with all people everywhere, all the time, in every way possible! Anyone who's heard me teach knows that my heart beats for bringing others to Jesus.

QUESTION: That same article mentioned that you ate an Iftar dinner with Orange County Muslims. What is that all about?

WARREN: It's called being polite, and a good neighbor. For years, we have invited Muslim friends to attend our Easter and Christmas services, and they have graciously attended year after year. Some have even celebrated our family's personal Christmas service in our home. So when they have a potluck when their month of fasting ends, we go to their party. It's a Jesus thing. The Pharisees criticized him as "the friend of sinners" because Jesus ate dinner with people they disapproved of. By the way, one of my dear friends is a Jewish Rabbi and my family has celebrated Passover at his home, and he attends our Christmas and Easter services. I wish more Christians would reach out in love like Jesus.

QUESTION: Why do you think people who call themselves Christians sometimes say the most hateful things about Muslims?

WARREN: Well, some of those folks probably aren't really Christians. 1 John 4:20 says, "If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." And 1 John 2:9 says "Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness." I am not allowed by Jesus to hate anyone. Our culture has accepted two huge lies: The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear them or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don't have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.

QUESTION: Let's talk about evangelism. In the past 10 years, Saddleback Church has baptized over 24,000 new believers. No other church comes close to that record. You are likely the most evangelistic church in America. What's the key?

WARREN: We are willing to do what many other churches are unwilling to do. We are willing to go beyond our comfort zone.

QUESTION: For instance?

WARREN: Because Jesus commanded us to take the Gospel to everyone, I spend much of my time with groups of people who completely disagree with what I believe. I'm constantly trying to build a bridge of love to nonbelievers, to atheists, to gays, to those I disagree with politically, and to those of other faiths. We don't wait for these people to come to church; we go to them and share with them on their turf, not ours. Every member is a minister and a missionary. Saddleback was a missional church 30 years before the term became popular. We just called it being "purpose driven"

QUESTION: "Building a bridge" sounds like compromise to many people.

WARREN: Building a bridge has nothing to do with compromising your beliefs. It's all about your behavior and your attitude toward them. It's about genuinely loving people. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Before people ask "Is Jesus credible?" they want to know if you are credible. Before people trust Jesus they must trust you. You cannot enemies to Christ, only your friends. It's part of what Paul calls "the ministry of reconciliation." It is Christlike to treat people with dignity and listen to them with respect...

QUESTION: What is the PEACE Center?

WARREN: Based on Jesus' instructions in Acts 1:8, we practice the PEACE Plan in three dimensions: PERSONAL PEACE - my ministry to those closest to me; LOCAL PEACE -our congregation's ministry to our community; and GLOBAL PEACE - serving other local churches around the world as those congregations do their own local PEACE. The PEACE Center is the building on our church campus that houses about three dozen of our 300 ministries to the community. It offers our food bank, job training, family counseling, legal aid, car repair, tutoring, English as a second language, legal immigration assistance, and many other ministries.

QUESTION: I read an article that claimed you were building a PEACE Center to bring Muslims and Christians together in peace.

WARREN: It was the writer's mistake. He got two different stories confused. Our recently opened PEACE Center, on the Saddleback Church campus has NOTHING ...zero... to do with our Muslim friends.

This is an example of why I always doubt what I read in newspapers and blogs about ministries. Secular reporters trying to cover churches and theological issues often get it wrong . But then Christian bloggers, instead of contacting the ministry, blindly believe, quote and repost the errors made by secular reporters. Then those errors become permanent, searchable, and global on the Internet. I couldn't count the number of times a secular reporter has gotten a story about Saddleback wrong but then it is perpetuated by Christians who never fact-check. And the three factors I mentioned about the Internet make it impossible to correct all the misperceptions, and outright lies that get repeated over and over...

QUESTION: What is the goal of your ministry?

WARREN: To know Christ and make Him known! To live out Jesus' Great Commandment and Great Commission! In fact, this has been the motto of Saddleback Church since we started it in 1980: "A great commitment to the Great Commandment and the Great Commission will grow a great church." Everything we do comes out of these two great texts. God's five eternal purposes for both our lives and the church proceed from these verses. The Purpose Driven Church and The Purpose Driven Life explain this in detail....

QUESTION: Are you promoting Chrislam?

WARREN: Of course not. It's the lie that won't die. No matter how many times we refute it and correct that lie, people keep passing it on as truth. Jesus is the only way to salvation. Period. If I didn't believe that, I'd get into much easier line of work! But I do believe that everybody needs Jesus and I am willing to put up with false statements and misunderstandings in order to get the Gospel out.

 

[DMcFadden]

Thanks, Pergy. That through a LOT of light on the discussion.

 

[Rufus]

I don't agree with Rick Warren but some of his critics seem to criticize him because he's popular not because of faulty theology and distort, twist, ignore the truth and believe distortions, twists, and lies*.


*Not that you'd ever find me attending Saddleback or endorsing The Purpose Driven Life, because you won't.

 

[Craig.Scott]

Is it true the document 'King's Life' (i think its called) mentions something about Christians and Muslims not proselyting each other?







In Christ

 

[J. Dean]

Thanks, Pergy. That through a LOT of light on the discussion.

Agreed. This does help. Although I'm still not crazy about Rick's (and his wife Kay's) praise for Henri Nouwen.

---------- Post added at 08:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 AM ----------

While I doubt that Warren is a universalist, it's just not good form to quote people who are seriously errant in their theology and not make any qualifying statements about that person.

Why? Not all things can be said at one time. We must be careful not to import too much meaning into a man's message when he spoken otherwise elsewhere.

I'm talking about Warren with regard to Nouwen. Warren has expressed favorable things about Henri Nouwen more than once. Nouwen is a Roman Catholic universalist mystic who held approaches to prayer that were questionable at best.

 

[heartoflesh]

Can anyone point me to a truly objective resource regarding Warren?

Last Sunday evening my church started a special DVD series called "Wide is the Gate" by Caryl Matrisciana and it's very much in the same vein as Dave Hunt, Brannon House, etc. Very sensationalistic, Dispensational-leaning (their website contains extremely anti-Calvinistic sentiments)..... Anyway, the segment last Sunday was on "the counterfeit church" and had a big segment on Warren. During the segment they showed a photo of John Piper sitting next to Warren. I spent a good amount of time afterwards defending Piper (although I know the man's not perfect, and I still want to find out what's going on in his head about warren-- but I have met the man on several occasions and can think of few people who have such a contagious joy in God).

So I'm trying to get to the bottom of this Warren thing. I appreciate the post above with the recent interview with him, and I forwarded that to the elders hosting this series. Interestingly, one of the big concerns they have with Warren is his association with mysticism (which I haven't gotten to the bottom of yet) and I brought up in class how A.W. Tozer relied heavily on mystics (this is very relevant at my church since we are CMA--- Tozer's denom). Then I found this article on old Tozer, and I'm thinking maybe the elders should examine this ...
The Way of the Mystics & The Roots of AW Tozer's Righteousness | asterisktom on Xanga


By the way, you're probably wondering why in the world I go to this church. We are all very honest with each other, me with my Calvinism and Amillennialism and they with their Arminianism and Dispensational pretrib stuff. If you can find me a good solidly Reformed church within 15 miles of 55024 I would love to consider it.

peace....