RPW limits

[Weston Stoler]

What do you think constitutes going outside of RPW. I know some people do just accapella psalms, some sing hymns, some sing contemporary, and still say it falls into the range of orthodox RPW. What exactly falls outside of the RPW. After studying more about baptism and eschatology I plan on studying the RPW and I wanted to know just what is outside of orthodoxy.

PS. My church sings a mix of hymns and contemporary soooo that is where I am coming from. (one person might raise their hand but they might get stared at lol)

 

[JML]

It seems your question refers only to what songs to sing and how that relates to the RPW.

Here is a very short and condensed answer. Starting with the Old Testament, there is very little argument with the fact that the OT church sang exclusively psalms. So now we come to the New Testament. Question 1 is: Was singing fulfilled in some way by Christ in that we are no longer to sing in worship (such as with sacrifices)? Answer: No. We are still commanded to sing in worship in the NT. Question 2: With a starting point then of psalms only from the OT, is there anything contained in the New Testament that changes what we are to sing from psalms only to uninspired, man composed hymns? Answer: No. The only place the hymn singer can turn is Ephesians 5:19 & Colossians 3:16. However, when these verses are considered with when they were written and other criteria, it is impossible that Paul had in mind what we now consider hymns and spiritual songs. Additionally, when we look at the titles given to the psalms and see that they contain the words "hymn" and "song", it makes it quite clear what Paul was referring to (the only songs he would have been used to singing...the psalms).

Therefore, if we start with the fact that psalms were approved for worship and then consider that there is nothing in Scripture that proves that we have the right to add to this, we are left with the psalms only position according to the RPW.

 

[J. Dean]

Therefore, if we start with the fact that psalms were approved for worship and then consider that there is nothing in Scripture that proves that we have the right to add to this, we are left with the psalms only position according to the RPW.

But what about passages like Philippians 2:5-11, which are considered by some to be a hymn of sorts?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

This is either going to be about the RPW in general or we will need to move this thread to the EP sub forum. I think first you have to decide if you embrace the general principle and then determine where you fall on arguments for disputed elements or disputed points about the elements (WCF=parts) of worship.

 

[Weston Stoler]

So, the RPW is only restricited to psalms? Does that mean that all those who sing hymns and contemporary songs are out of the RPW? Because most of the Presbyterian churches I have seen sing a lot of contemporary music and they do claim to be confessional to the Westminster confession.

 

[Zach]

Therefore, if we start with the fact that psalms were approved for worship and then consider that there is nothing in Scripture that proves that we have the right to add to this, we are left with the psalms only position according to the RPW.

Yesterday a guest speaker spoke on Singing and he cited Ezra 3:10-11, where the temple is rebuilt, and it indicates that the people sang responsively something that was not from the Psalter. What are your thoughts about his argument?

"And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests in their vestments came forward with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the LORD, according to the directions of David king of Israel. And they sang responsively, praising and giving thanks to the LORD,
“For he is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever toward Israel.”
And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid." (Ezra 3:10-11 ESV)

 

[NaphtaliPress]

What was unclear about my post?

So, the RPW is only restricited to psalms? Does that mean that all those who sing hymns and contemporary songs are out of the RPW? Because most of the Presbyterian churches I have seen sing a lot of contemporary music and they do claim to be confessional to the Westminster confession.

 

[Weston Stoler]

What was unclear about my post?

So, the RPW is only restricited to psalms? Does that mean that all those who sing hymns and contemporary songs are out of the RPW? Because most of the Presbyterian churches I have seen sing a lot of contemporary music and they do claim to be confessional to the Westminster confession.

Ohh I think I might not have understood it the first time I read it. Sorry about that

 

[JML]

Yesterday a guest speaker spoke on Singing and he cited Ezra 3:10-11, where the temple is rebuilt, and it indicates that the people sang responsively something that was not from the Psalter. What are your thoughts about his argument?

But what about passages like Philippians 2:5-11, which are considered by some to be a hymn of sorts?

Sorry guys. See post #4. I can't give my opinion on those questions unless Weston decides to take the thread in that direction. I promise that I am not avoiding your questions.

 

[Weston Stoler]

we can move the forum in to the EP sub forum

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Okay; proceed.

we can move the forum in to the EP sub forum

 

[Zach]

This is either going to be about the RPW in general or we will need to move this thread to the EP sub forum. I think first you have to decide if you embrace the general principle and then determine where you fall on arguments for disputed elements or disputed points about the elements (WCF=parts) of worship.

Sorry, Chris. Please forgive me for asking a question about EP when I should have let the discussion on the RPW continue.

 

[JML]

Yesterday a guest speaker spoke on Singing and he cited Ezra 3:10-11, where the temple is rebuilt, and it indicates that the people sang responsively something that was not from the Psalter. What are your thoughts about his argument?

"And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests in their vestments came forward with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the LORD, according to the directions of David king of Israel. And they sang responsively, praising and giving thanks to the LORD,
“For he is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever toward Israel.”
And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid." (Ezra 3:10-11 ESV)

I would have to study the passage in more detail but:

1) It was according to the directions of David, an inspired prophet
2) It sounds an awful lot like Psalm 118

Psalm 118:1-2
Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; for his steadfast love endures forever! Let Israel say, "His steadfast love endures forever." (ESV)

---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------

But what about passages like Philippians 2:5-11, which are considered by some to be a hymn of sorts?

Key words being "considered by some." There is no proof that there any hymnic passages in the NT.

 

[J. Dean]

***deleted. The question was answered. Thanks, John! ***

 

[Zach]

we can move the forum in to the EP sub forum

Also, sorry to you Weston for derailing your thread and making it about EP.

Yesterday a guest speaker spoke on Singing and he cited Ezra 3:10-11, where the temple is rebuilt, and it indicates that the people sang responsively something that was not from the Psalter. What are your thoughts about his argument?

"And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests in their vestments came forward with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the LORD, according to the directions of David king of Israel. And they sang responsively, praising and giving thanks to the LORD,
“For he is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever toward Israel.”
And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid." (Ezra 3:10-11 ESV)

I would have to study the passage in more detail but:

1) It was according to the directions of David, an inspired prophet
2) It sounds an awful lot about Psalm 118

Psalm 118:1-2
Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; for his steadfast love endures forever! Let Israel say, "His steadfast love endures forever." (ESV)

---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------

But what about passages like Philippians 2:5-11, which are considered by some to be a hymn of sorts?

Key words being "considered by some." There is no proof that there any hymnic passages in the NT.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts John. When he made that point in yesterdays sermon I was curious as to how an EP person would respond to that.

 

[Weston Stoler]

we can move the forum in to the EP sub forum

Also, sorry to you Weston for derailing your thread and making it about EP.

Yesterday a guest speaker spoke on Singing and he cited Ezra 3:10-11, where the temple is rebuilt, and it indicates that the people sang responsively something that was not from the Psalter. What are your thoughts about his argument?

"And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests in their vestments came forward with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the LORD, according to the directions of David king of Israel. And they sang responsively, praising and giving thanks to the LORD,
“For he is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever toward Israel.”
And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid." (Ezra 3:10-11 ESV)

I would have to study the passage in more detail but:

1) It was according to the directions of David, an inspired prophet
2) It sounds an awful lot about Psalm 118

Psalm 118:1-2
Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; for his steadfast love endures forever! Let Israel say, "His steadfast love endures forever." (ESV)

---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------

But what about passages like Philippians 2:5-11, which are considered by some to be a hymn of sorts?

Key words being "considered by some." There is no proof that there any hymnic passages in the NT.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts John. When he made that point in yesterdays sermon I was curious as to how an EP person would respond to that.

Don't mind ^-^ I am still learning about the RPW and many other reformed doctrines soooooo it is nice to see the discussions anyways

 

[jwithnell]

Westin, are you just referring to singing or to all that is/is not appropriate for worship? If it's music, the primary problem occurs when music is turned into a performance for the congregation. All music in worship is to glory God, who is our audience, though interestingly, I've heard Sinclair Ferguson say that instructional hymns (like If Thou But Suffer God to Guide Thee which is giving encouragement in the faith) are like sermons that the members are preaching to each other. That's a new one on me, but it is an interesting thought for you will find Psalms and hymns that address believers.

 

[JML]

My advice in regards to your desire to learn about the RPW, Weston, is this:

Start with a blank slate and then study the Bible to see what is approved of in regards to worship. Go through the OT and make a list if you have to and then go to new and mark off things that were fulfilled and add things that were an addition in the NT. In my opinion, the biggest mistakes a person makes in relation to the RPW are these:

1) They start with the NT and disregard the Old. If it was in the OT and was not fulfilled or done away with in the New, it is still in effect.
2) People begin with their own desires and traditions and try to find why they are or are not acceptable instead of having a blank slate and letting the Bible speak for itself. (in my opinion, the reason why so many people still hang on to uninspired hymnody, they want it to be there so they search for justification that it is there).
3) They read a modern day understanding into a text that was written 2,000 years ago. (seeing hymn in Colossians 3:16 as something out of the Trinity Hymnal).

 

[jwithnell]

So John, what would you say if you were to meet John Newton? He started with EP and was appalled both at the quality of singing it produced and the lack of a OF THE direct mention of Jesus. Did he blow the RPW to smithereens?

 

[JML]

So John, what would you say if you were to meet John Newton? He started with EP and was appalled both at the quality of singing it produced and the lack of a OF THE direct mention of Jesus. Did he blow the RPW to smithereens?

I would say that Christ is all throughout the Psalms and I would argue that both objections that Newton makes are not based on Scripture but his own opinion. I can't understand how anyone can read Psalm 22 and say that Christ is not in the Psalms. That is just one example. One can come up with any argument they like but in the end there is nowhere that the Scriptures authorize us to use uninspired hymns in worship. So whatever objection they bring, they are arguing with the way that God has prescribed His worship. I don't much worry about what John Newton would think, but instead what is pleasing to God based on His Scriptures.

 

[Tim]

3) They read a modern day understanding into a text that was written 2,000 years ago. (seeing hymn in Colossians 3:16 as something out of the Trinity Hymnal).

Yes. This is important and deserves to be highlighted because it is such a common misunderstanding.

 

[TexanRose]

So John, what would you say if you were to meet John Newton? He started with EP and was appalled both at the quality of singing it produced and the lack of a OF THE direct mention of Jesus. Did he blow the RPW to smithereens?

? EP does not "produce" bad singing.

 

[MW]

One can come up with any argument they like but in the end there is nowhere that the Scriptures authorize us to use uninspired hymns in worship.

One wonders why, if we live under a better administration of the covenant of grace, the New Testament Church should be subjected to an inferior quality of psalmody and bound to set forms of uninspired words, when the Jews under the yoke of the law were not even subjected to them.

 

[Peairtach]

So, the RPW is only restricited to psalms? Does that mean that all those who sing hymns and contemporary songs are out of the RPW? Because most of the Presbyterian churches I have seen sing a lot of contemporary music and they do claim to be confessional to the Westminster confession.

There are some RPWs that do not believe it is sinful to compose or sing a good quality hymn or use a musical instrument, but if they are introduced to the regular, gathered, services of God's people they overthrow the pattern of New Covenant worship.

There was a distinction between the formal regulated worship and informal worship in the Old Covenant e.g. the Temple rite vs. the local weekly convocations or David strumming his lyre on a sheep-filled hillside. There is a comparable distinction in the New.

When this is ignored, worship becomes a creative free-for-all.

 

[VictorBravo]

So, the RPW is only restricited to psalms? Does that mean that all those who sing hymns and contemporary songs are out of the RPW? Because most of the Presbyterian churches I have seen sing a lot of contemporary music and they do claim to be confessional to the Westminster confession.

There are some RPWs that do not believe it is sinful to compose or sing a good quality hymn or use a musical instrument, but if they are introduced to the regular, gathered, services of God's people they overthrow the pattern of New Covenant worship.

There was a distinction between the formal regulated worship and informal worship in the Old Covenant e.g. the Temple rite vs. the local weekly convocations or David strumming his lyre on a sheep-filled hillside. There is a comparable distinction in the New.

When this is ignored, worship becomes a creative free-for-all.

Right, and Weston, it is helpful to think in categories:

Of all the churches who claim to be Gospel churches, there is a subset of churches that hold to the Regulative Principle. These are clearly in the minority and are usually, but not always, confessional.

Of those that hold to the Regulative Principle, there is disagreement on details: some believe hymns, as well as Psalms, are commanded, and others hold to Psalms only (EP for exclusive psalmody).

Some who hold to EP believe that those who allow hymns are violating the RP. And some in the Hymn camp actually believe that EP is violating the RP.

I'm not addressing the validity of the reasons for disagreement, but just reminding you that both camps holding to the RPW are distinguished from the greater "evangelical" world by their fundamental approach: which is to conduct worship in a simple fashion, following what they understand to be the requirements of Scripture. This is in contrast to the "whatever is not specifically prohibited is allowed" approach that is found almost everywhere else.