Sacred Name????
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toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
This is for you PB great ones, is it Jehovah or Yahweh? What is the semantic difference if any?
I'm no 'great one' but the difference is that Jehovah is the Germanic adaptation of Yahweh... they're the same name.
In the Hebrew text, the divine name is the so called "tetragrammaton" (yod, he waw, he). The original text had no vowel points. When the Masoretic scribes added vowels to help with pronounciation between 800-1000 AD, they added the vowels for Lord or the Hebrew word "Adonai" to indicate that they did not believe "the name" (hashem) should be pronounced. It was too sacred and pronunication might infringe on the third commandment. So when it is seen it should be pronounced "adonai". Later it began to be pronounced with the vowels from adonai but the consonants from YHWH. This produced (being Germanicized) Jehovah. Later Hebrew scholars have speculated that the closer vocalization to what is probably the original is Yahweh (some even guessing Yihweh!). There is no semantic difference. Just different ways of attempting to pronounce the same word.
Interesting, thank you. I knew that when more modern translations began to drop Jehovah in favor of Yahweh it caused a stir! (at least back then from Bible Histories I have read.)This is for you PB great ones, is it Jehovah or Yahweh? What is the semantic difference if any?
I'm no 'great one' but the difference is that Jehovah is the Germanic adaptation of Yahweh... they're the same name.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
Out of respect whenever possible I always say Lord when I come upon the name in the Hebrew text.
In "general" I do as we in Prayer and such, I was more curious if there were a Semantic difference of any note.
Jimmy the Greek
Puritan Board Senior
In some modern translations (a la the NASB), the Tetragrammaton is rendered LORD in all (or small) caps -- differentiating it from Adonai. I understand YHWH to be the more personal covenantal name of God rather than a title, like Lord. Therefore, to read it as Yahweh would seem to properly distinguish that aspect.
The question isn't "how is that name pronounced?" but "how should an English-speaker pronounce that name?"
Some time back I read an excellent article in which the author deplored this silly modern convention of forcing English speakers to pronounce the names of foreign capitals according to a native pronunciation. The problem really is an obvious one (why it should be controversial is merely a political power-play)--we don't talk that way. If you want to be pee-cee and all that rot, then be sure to say "Roma" all the time, instead of Rome, "Al Qoherah" instead of Cairo, "Paree" instead of Paris. Etc. It's stupid to assert that someone must be imperialist if they say "Peking" instead of Beijing. We seldom pronounce it any more closely to the foreign sound anyway!
Same exact thing regarding the Name. "Jehovah" is how WE would, did, should, and shall pronounce the name, and anyone who says otherwise is himself being rather an elitist. English isn't good enough--no but we should all pretend to a familiarity with gutterals, half-stops, curious tongue-placements and sounds... what? as if that will give us new "cachet"? Please. It's one thing to speak a foreign tongue like a native. It's quite another to affect an greater sympathy than is true.
Using the Name "Jehovah" in a natural, unaffected way is far more genuine than the pretentious use of "the RIGHT! way to say the Name." That was a carefully worded sentence. If you prefer the latter usage, and can do it in a natural, unaffected, and non-pontifical fashion, then go ahead. Just don't look down on the rubes who prefer the language and terms of their historic English Bibles, Psalms and hymns. After all, it's just their native tongue. And God be praised in it!
Some time back I read an excellent article in which the author deplored this silly modern convention of forcing English speakers to pronounce the names of foreign capitals according to a native pronunciation. The problem really is an obvious one (why it should be controversial is merely a political power-play)--we don't talk that way. If you want to be pee-cee and all that rot, then be sure to say "Roma" all the time, instead of Rome, "Al Qoherah" instead of Cairo, "Paree" instead of Paris. Etc. It's stupid to assert that someone must be imperialist if they say "Peking" instead of Beijing. We seldom pronounce it any more closely to the foreign sound anyway!
Same exact thing regarding the Name. "Jehovah" is how WE would, did, should, and shall pronounce the name, and anyone who says otherwise is himself being rather an elitist. English isn't good enough--no but we should all pretend to a familiarity with gutterals, half-stops, curious tongue-placements and sounds... what? as if that will give us new "cachet"? Please. It's one thing to speak a foreign tongue like a native. It's quite another to affect an greater sympathy than is true.
Using the Name "Jehovah" in a natural, unaffected way is far more genuine than the pretentious use of "the RIGHT! way to say the Name." That was a carefully worded sentence. If you prefer the latter usage, and can do it in a natural, unaffected, and non-pontifical fashion, then go ahead. Just don't look down on the rubes who prefer the language and terms of their historic English Bibles, Psalms and hymns. After all, it's just their native tongue. And God be praised in it!
A5pointer
Puritan Board Sophomore
Along these lines I need some help. I am preparing to teach Exodus Ch 3. to adult Sunday School class. If anyone has worked on this text? I am a little confused by the text. Is the name of God here primarily "I am who I am", "I AM", "YHWH", "The God of your fathers- Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" or some combination of these? Is there a primary focus on one of these names? Is this the first time God has referred to Himself as "YHWH"?
13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, [c] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, [c] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
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this Is For You Pb Great Ones, Is It Jehovah Or Yahweh? What Is The Semantic Difference If Any?
yhwh
I think from the biblical narrative the answer has to be yes, the earlier saints would have called YHWH, elohim. If I recall correctly that is one of the big arguments used in support of the J and E sources.
Rev. Todd Ruddell
Puritan Board Junior
The first time the Covenantal Name is used is in Genesis 2.4:
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Note the LORD in all caps. That's the way the KJV renders the tetragrammaton.
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Note the LORD in all caps. That's the way the KJV renders the tetragrammaton.
Zenas
Snow Miser
I'm no expert, but I have read that YHWH can and is translated as both "LORD" and "I AM". Literally translated I think it means "I AM", but it is translated to "LORD". In either instance, it is a rendering of God's holy name.
When you see "Lord" in the text, it is a rendering of "Adonai". Please, someone with more knowledge correct me if I'm wrong as I've only read this in a Sproul book and I could be remembering it wrong.
A5pointer
Puritan Board Sophomore
Thank you, the question here is not if this is the first use of YHWH by the writer of the pentatuch but is it an Anachronism? Some feel that the revelation to Moses is the first time God reveals himself as YHWH. I am working through some commentary now. Enn's feels this is not intended to be seen as a new revelation and makes some good points in defense of his opinion.
Exactly, we should (in my opinion) draw a distinction between the biblical narrative and the redaction in that whilst YHWH is used by the redactor prior to the burning bush we know from the biblical narrative that YHWH was first made known to Moses.
Of course there are questions to be resolved, e.g. if when asked who had sent him Moses replied "YHWH" how would his audience have known who he was refering to if the name "YHWH" was a 'new revelation', &c.
Rev. Todd Ruddell
Puritan Board Junior
Sorry for misunderstanding. Please note Genesis 4.1; 4.26; 5.29. I believe 4.1 and 5.26 to be inspired records of quotations, and 4.26 to indicate that Yaveh had indeed revealed Himself as such prior to Moses. Yaveh is the covenantal name--it is related to the verb "to be" (Heb. eh-yeh) in that Yaveh will always be there to execute His Covenantal Fidelity (chesed) and ever there to execute His righteosness and judgment (tsaddiq vshaphat) in the Covenant of Grace, and the Covenant of Works, respectively. The early saints were Covenantal Believers, and God had, in the garden, revealed Himself as the Covenant keeping God (Yaveh).
I suppose another issue is that any earlier pentateuchal sources (i.e. pre-mosaic) would have been edited by Moses who knew the covenant name which could explain why we find "YHWH" appearing in earlier (pre-Exodus 3) dialogues.
greenbaggins
Puritan Board Doctor
I agree with this up to a point. Any familiar names that might not be recognized if pronounced according to the original pronunciation, I will usually say it in the Anglicized form. For instance, I will not say "Mosheh" when the English text says "Moses." However, when the text says "Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz," I will pronounce it in a Hebrew way, since a. it is correct, b. no one will doubt who I'm talking about. It won't confuse anyone. Of course, there is sometimes a fine line. For instance I will also say "AhveeMElek" instead of "UhBImuhlek" for "Abimelek." It is easier then to explain that "Abi" means "my father" and "melek" means "king." But I will not say "itsahk" instead of "Isaac," even though the former is correct Hebrew pronunciation. All the same, your point about not looking down at other pronunciations is important.
CovenantalBaptist
Puritan Board Freshman
Dear AV1611
I'm confused by your use of the term "redactor" and reference to a wikipedia article defending the existence of "J" and "E". Can you clarify if you hold to the documentary hypothesis or to the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch?
In Him,
Chris.
I'm confused by your use of the term "redactor" and reference to a wikipedia article defending the existence of "J" and "E". Can you clarify if you hold to the documentary hypothesis or to the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch?
In Him,
Chris.
PA Deutsch
Puritan Board Freshman
Pronunciation
Contra Mundum,
Great post! I remember when I was a teenager in the early 80's and the liberal newscasters would do their best to pronounce "Nicaragua" like a native, but they would mispronounce "Oregon" a few minutes later.
I work with a wonderful British lieutenant colonel. A few months ago he and his wife were at our local grocery and asked for some fish fillets, which they pronounce as "fill-its". When the lady behind the meat counter corrected them with "fill-ay", my friend responded, "Why do you pronounce it like that? Are you French?"
Contra Mundum,
Great post! I remember when I was a teenager in the early 80's and the liberal newscasters would do their best to pronounce "Nicaragua" like a native, but they would mispronounce "Oregon" a few minutes later.
I work with a wonderful British lieutenant colonel. A few months ago he and his wife were at our local grocery and asked for some fish fillets, which they pronounce as "fill-its". When the lady behind the meat counter corrected them with "fill-ay", my friend responded, "Why do you pronounce it like that? Are you French?"
Chris,
Apologies for any confusion, I accept that Moses wrote or at least edited the majority of the Pentateuch. Of course I find it difficult to accept Moses wrote Deuteronomy 34.
As for the DH, I do not accept it however I think it raises interesting issues to that need to be addressed. Cole's introduction to his [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Tyndale-Old-Testament-Commentaries/dp/0830842020/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212261108&sr=8-7"]TOTC commentary on Exodus[/ame] is pretty good in my opinion as is Gordon Wenham's essay in [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Commentary-Genesis-wenham-406pp/dp/0849902002/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212263293&sr=1-1"]this[/ame] and Kidner's discussion of it in [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Tyndale-Old-Testament-Commentaries/dp/0830842012/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212263520&sr=1-3"]this[/ame].
Hope that clears matters up
Apologies for any confusion, I accept that Moses wrote or at least edited the majority of the Pentateuch. Of course I find it difficult to accept Moses wrote Deuteronomy 34.
As for the DH, I do not accept it however I think it raises interesting issues to that need to be addressed. Cole's introduction to his [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Tyndale-Old-Testament-Commentaries/dp/0830842020/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212261108&sr=8-7"]TOTC commentary on Exodus[/ame] is pretty good in my opinion as is Gordon Wenham's essay in [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Commentary-Genesis-wenham-406pp/dp/0849902002/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212263293&sr=1-1"]this[/ame] and Kidner's discussion of it in [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Tyndale-Old-Testament-Commentaries/dp/0830842012/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212263520&sr=1-3"]this[/ame].
Hope that clears matters up
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David_A_Reed
Puritan Board Freshman
It may be worth noting that the King James Version uses the name Jehovah at Exodus 6:3, Psalm 83:18, Isaiah 12:2, and Isaiah 26:4.
Abraham named a place JEHOVAH-JIREH according to Genesis 22:14, which may be a problem for the theory that the name wasn't introduced until Exodus. (See also JEHOVAH-NISSI at Exodus 17:15, JEHOVAH-SHALOM at Judges 6:24, JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH at Ezekiel 48:35 and JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU at Jeremiah 23:6.)
The sacred name also appears as part of many Hebrew names, such as Jesus, which means Jehovah is the Savior, or Jehovah Saves. Consider the many other Bible names that begin with "Je..." Also, the Hebrew names that end with "...iah" or "...jah" such as Elijah meaning God is Jah, or God is Jehovah.
David
Abraham named a place JEHOVAH-JIREH according to Genesis 22:14, which may be a problem for the theory that the name wasn't introduced until Exodus. (See also JEHOVAH-NISSI at Exodus 17:15, JEHOVAH-SHALOM at Judges 6:24, JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH at Ezekiel 48:35 and JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU at Jeremiah 23:6.)
The sacred name also appears as part of many Hebrew names, such as Jesus, which means Jehovah is the Savior, or Jehovah Saves. Consider the many other Bible names that begin with "Je..." Also, the Hebrew names that end with "...iah" or "...jah" such as Elijah meaning God is Jah, or God is Jehovah.
David
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