Saturday Sabbath

[Grant]

So I’ve had some recent discussions in person with a new acquaintance whom I hope to continue to have theological discussions. I believe the individual may have ties to the Hebrew Roots Movement and potentially Black Hebrew Israelites. Those are not necessarily the topics of this thread but hopefully can provide some context. I did not specifically ask about those labels, but there were some signals to point that direction. I was mostly listening in hopes of getting to know the person more.

The acquaintance holds to a Saturday sabbath observance. This at least provided some common ground to both agreeing the 4th commandment is still morally binding. The summarized argument was that Daniel 7:25 prophesied a time when paganism and/Rome would influence the church and try to change times and laws. They concluding Saturday to Sunday was done by man’s tradition and not by the Lord.

I have been freshing back up on some of these arguments myself to seek out future brotherly discussions. Johnathan Edwards has a good article here: https://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/sabbath.htm (I found it shared by @VictorBravo)

In the article Edwards states:

Seventh, a further argument for the perpetuity of the Sabbath, we have in Mat. 24:20, “Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath-day.” Christ is here speaking of the flight of the apostles and other Christians out of Jerusalem and Judea, just before their final destruction, as is manifest by the whole context, and especially by the 16th verse, “Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains.” But this final destruction of Jerusalem was after the dissolution of the Jewish constitution, and after the Christian dispensation was fully set up. Yet, it is plainly implied in these words of our Lord, that even then Christians were bound to a strict observation of the Sabbath.

Edwards is firstly arguing for the perpetuity of sabbath observance against those who see the sabbath as fully abrogated or only spiritual in the New Testament dispensation. To be clear neither of us would disagree with Edward’s quote. However, in light of my present context, I wondered if the above could be used to argue for the sabbath to still be observed on Saturday? In other words, does Jesus’ sabbath warning of coming persecution not still demonstrate the NT Church had obligations on Saturday to be resting in the Lord? I’m arguing with myself to help be gain more clarity on the topic. Edwards it not advocating Saturday sabbath. I’m just wondering if his argument with this verse for sabbath perpetuity inadvertently undermines an argument pro-1st day of the week observance.

Any other insight would be great on the topic of the Sabbath date being moved to what we call the Lord’s Day. I am familiar with Westminster Standards and, to be clear, I take no exceptions. I am merely trying to shrink my ignorance of the present day Saturday advocates (yes I know they come in many stripes), to be able to foster healthier conversations with a gentlemen I hope to have ongoing conversations with in person. I’m in a land of being basically alone in seeking to keep the Lord’s DAY with my family in accord with Westminster’s understanding of the Bible. So in the least, it was refreshing to speak to someone that still believes the 4th commandment is still binding.

 

[jwithnell]

It appears you're dealing with someone who proof-texts. Regardless of the point he's trying to make, discussing the types of literature in scripture and how they are to be handled in interpretation and application will likely be the most helpful for his faith in the long run.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Here is more literature on the change of the seventh to first day.

 

[Grant]

It appears you're dealing with someone who proof-texts. Regardless of the point he's trying to make, discussing the types of literature in scripture and how they are to be handled in interpretation and application will likely be the most helpful for his faith in the long run.

Hey Jean, thanks for weighing in. What is leading you to this? So far in my assessment many reformed commentators do associate Roman Catholic Doctrine (fest, holidays, and all the extra toppings) with Daniel 7:25.

The other verse in Matthew was 24:20 came from Johnathan Edwards.

 

[jwithnell]

@Grant I'm not likely to look at a commentary on a particular passage as a way of supporting a doctrine someone is trying to develop from a single verse. The type of literature, it's historical context, how it references or is referenced by other scriptures are all factors to weigh. Making an imperative -- the sabbath is to be observed on Saturday -- from a prophetic verse is rather a stretch.

 

[VictorBravo]

Thanks for pointing out Edwards’s piece. I think he address well the change in day later, when he addresses how the old Sabbath reflects creation, and the Christian Sabbath is patterned after the new creation. Jesus obtained rest on the first day, his resurrection.

The discussion on Hebrews 4 was compelling to me.

As Edwards notes, the 4th commandment itself does not specify a particular day but the pattern. It took additional revelation to specify the particular day of rest. In the new creation period, we have a new revelation of the particular day of rest after Christ.

 

[Grant]

@Grant I'm not likely to look at a commentary on a particular passage as a way of supporting a doctrine someone is trying to develop from a single verse. The type of literature, it's historical context, how it references or is referenced by other scriptures are all factors to weigh. Making an imperative -- the sabbath is to be observed on Saturday -- from a prophetic verse is rather a stretch.

Hey Jean, thanks for the clarification. This may assume too much, as neither the acquaintance nor myself are taking some perceived short cut. So be more clear, the acquaintance hasn't said "this is THE verse supporting my proposition" . Note my OP states the "summarized argument", which was to keep the OP shorter. Both parties involved understand Daniel is prophetic in Chapter 7. So if your point is you just don't agree with him, that is fine, but I think it's safe to assume the things you mentioned have been weighed and wrestled with. I found it interesting that faithful commentators have made conclusions regarding the influence of RC doctrine in other matters from this section of scripture. That was my summarized point.

To some degree, this would also be consistent with a popular approach to Revelation from a historical reformed perspective based on my reading. While I disagree with the other party, I don't see it as a "stretch". I also I am happy to include some citations if that spurs discussion, but maybe you have something in mind to the contrary for Daniel 7:25 or something to weigh in on for Edward's point?

Gill:

And think to change times and laws: to alter the forms and constitutions of kingdoms, and the customs and usages of them; yea, to set up and pull down kings at pleasure; see Daniel 2:21, or to change the use of times and seasons, by setting apart days as holy for canonized saints; and appointing such days in a week, and such a season in the year, for abstinence from meats; and even to change the laws of God and man, by dispensing with both, and making new ones of his own:

Henry:

Now the question is, Who is this enemy, whose rise, reign, and ruin, are foretold? Interpreters are not agreed. Some will have the fourth kingdom to be that of the Seleucidae, and the little horn to be Antiochus, and show the accomplishment of all this in the history of the Maccabees; so Junius, Piscator, Polanus, Broughton, and many others: but others will have the fourth kingdom to be that of the Romans, and the little horn to be Julius Caesar, and the succeeding emperors (says Calvin), the antichrist, the papal kingdom (says Mr. Joseph Mede), that wicked one, which, as this little horn, is to be consumed by the brightness of Christ's second coming. The pope assumes a power to change times and laws, potestas autokratorikeµ—an absolute and despotic power, as he calls it. Others make the little horn to be the Turkish empire; so Luther, Vatablus, and others. Now I cannot prove either side to be wrong; and therefore, since prophecies sometimes have many fulfillings, and we ought to give scripture its full latitude (in this as in many other controversies), I am willing to allow that they are both in the right, and that this prophecy has primary reference to the Syrian empire, and was intended for the encouragement of the Jews who suffered under Antiochus, that they might see even these melancholy times foretold, but might foresee a glorious issue of them at last, and the final overthrow of their proud oppressors; and, which is best of all, might foresee, not long after, the setting up of the kingdom of the Messiah in the world, with the hopes of which it was usual with the former prophets to comfort the people of God in their distresses. But yet it has a further reference, and foretels the like persecuting power and rage in Rome heathen, and no less in Rome papal, against the Christian religion, that was in Antiochus against the pious Jews and their religion. And St. John, in his visions and prophecies, which point primarily at Rome, has plain reference, in many particulars, to these visions of Daniel.

Thanks for pointing out Edwards’s piece. I think he address well the change in day later, when he addresses how the old Sabbath reflects creation, and the Christian Sabbath is patterned after the new creation. Jesus obtained rest on the first day, his resurrection.

The discussion on Hebrews 4 was compelling to me.

As Edwards notes, the 4th commandment itself does not specify a particular day but the pattern. It took additional revelation to specify the particular day of rest. In the new creation period, we have a new revelation of the particular day of rest after Christ.

Hey Vic,

I agree 100% very compelling. I finished reading Edwards yesterday. I still want to keep brushing up, but I hope to share the Edward's document at some point as I also open myself to read whatever sources have been used by the other party. Edward's approach actually helped me to have a deeper understanding of the Lord's Day. Maybe some areas seemed a bit too polished, but I at least got the scripture references.

 

[Aretha]

So I’ve had some recent discussions in person with a new acquaintance whom I hope to continue to have theological discussions. I believe the individual may have ties to the Hebrew Roots Movement and potentially Black Hebrew Israelites. Those are not necessarily the topics of this thread but hopefully can provide some context. I did not specifically ask about those labels, but there were some signals to point that direction. I was mostly listening in hopes of getting to know the person more.

The acquaintance holds to a Saturday sabbath observance. This at least provided some common ground to both agreeing the 4th commandment is still morally binding. The summarized argument was that Daniel 7:25 prophesied a time when paganism and/Rome would influence the church and try to change times and laws. They concluding Saturday to Sunday was done by man’s tradition and not by the Lord.

I have been freshing back up on some of these arguments myself to seek out future brotherly discussions. Johnathan Edwards has a good article here: https://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/sabbath.htm (I found it shared by @VictorBravo)

In the article Edwards states:


Edwards is firstly arguing for the perpetuity of sabbath observance against those who see the sabbath as fully abrogated or only spiritual in the New Testament dispensation. To be clear neither of us would disagree with Edward’s quote. However, in light of my present context, I wondered if the above could be used to argue for the sabbath to still be observed on Saturday? In other words, does Jesus’ sabbath warning of coming persecution not still demonstrate the NT Church had obligations on Saturday to be resting in the Lord? I’m arguing with myself to help be gain more clarity on the topic. Edwards it not advocating Saturday sabbath. I’m just wondering if his argument with this verse for sabbath perpetuity inadvertently undermines an argument pro-1st day of the week observance.

Any other insight would be great on the topic of the Sabbath date being moved to what we call the Lord’s Day. I am familiar with Westminster Standards and, to be clear, I take no exceptions. I am merely trying to shrink my ignorance of the present day Saturday advocates (yes I know they come in many stripes), to be able to foster healthier conversations with a gentlemen I hope to have ongoing conversations with in person. I’m in a land of being basically alone in seeking to keep the Lord’s DAY with my family in accord with Westminster’s understanding of the Bible. So in the least, it was refreshing to speak to someone that still believes the 4th commandment is still binding.

What are Black Hebrew Israelites? Ethiopian Jews? Is your new acquaintance really a jewish?

 

[arapahoepark]

What are Black Hebrew Israelites? Ethiopian Jews? Is your new acquaintance really a jewish?

Take liberation theology, or at least the the whole hearted identification of the situation with Israel in bondage in Egypt with that of African slavery, to it's logical conclusion. Basically, with the situationship having been similar, it's assumed that somehow 'Blacks' are the Israelites of old. They are epitome of Judaizers as well as racism.