Casey
Puritan Board Junior
So we have the high hopes of homeschooling our children. I'd be happy with a smaller classical Christian school, too. But anyway, I've been trying to read up some and understand all the principles involved. This might be potentially controversial. So please try to understand before responding and defending the way you've been doing things. I have recently been reading this book:
Amazon.com: Wisdom and Eloquence: A Christian Paradigm for Classical Learning: Robert Littlejohn, Charles T. Evans: Books
I'll be the first to admit I haven't done a lot of reading on classical Christian education, but I have done some. In this book the authors make an interesting claim, and I've come to believe the way they are setting things up is true. I could be wrong, so I thought it would be worth discussing. Dorothy Sayers' Lost Tools of Learning speech/article set forth a basic understanding of classical education and jump-started a movement in that direction. Right. So a lot of our foundational understanding of classical education comes from (has been mediated through) Sayers' understanding of classical education. Well, the authors of this book argue that Sayers' got something wrong, and so now most classical Christians schools follow her slightly-skewed understanding.
They argue (and some of this may be put in my own words as I've munched on what they said) that Sayers' has confused method with material, the manner of teaching something with the subjects that are actually taught. So you have three stages in Sayers': grammar, logic, rhetoric. To quote off some random classical Christian school's website, "every subject has its Trivium." But the authors say this is misguided. Grammar, logic, and rhetoric should not be thought of as "learning stages" but rather as subjects. Whatever value the idea of "learning stages" has, they should not be confused with grammar, logic, and rhetoric.
Let me illustrate. Following Sayer's manner of speaking, many talk of "the grammar of history." Then "the logic of history." Maybe "the rhetoric of history"? So you have the grammar of math, the logic of math, and the rhetoric of math. You have the grammar of theology, the logic of theology, the rhetoric of theology. You have the grammar of Latin, the logic of Latin, and the rhetoric of Latin. And so on. What's the problem? Grammar, logic, and rhetoric are no longer subjects. Would we likewise say that there is a "grammar of grammar, logic of grammar, and rhetoric of grammar"? Sounds silly. "The grammar of logic, the logic of logic, the rhetoric of logic"? No, again sound silly. "The grammar of rhetoric, the logic of rhetoric, the rhetoric of rhetoric"? Again, doesn't make sense.
What Sayer's has accidentally done is removed grammar, logic, and rhetoric from the curriculum by turning these subjects into stages (aka, manners/methods of teaching subjects). But grammar is an actual subject, as is logic and rhetoric. All the subjects can be taught in stages, but the stages shouldn't be called "grammar, logic, and rhetoric." They argue in the book that those teaching in the medieval ages were concerned with the subjects, and not necessarily the method. Hopefully what I've explained here makes sense. Sayer's has equivocated on the words and so it's entered a large level of confusion which makes it hard to understand what the authors of the book have argued regarding her view.
So instead of teaching "the grammar of history," you just teach the basics or foundations or simple facts history. Grammar is a subject, not a stage. Perhaps you don't teach a young child grammar, you teach the alphabet and spelling, etc. But the alphabet and spelling is not grammar. It's inappropriate to call it grammar. And only languages have grammar, so the word should be reserved for that. Likewise, logic. Logic is a subject, not a stage. So maybe you don't teach logic until the child has grown a bit. Or maybe you teach basic principles of logic early on. But it's not right to call it the "grammar of logic," because logic doesn't have grammar. Logic doesn't have a "rhetorical" aspect either. Rhetoric is a subject, not a stage. If a child writes a history paper for presentation, that presentation may include principles of rhetoric (just as it included principles of grammar when forming sentences, etc.), but presenting a history paper should not be equated with teaching rhetoric. Rhetoric is its own stand-alone subject. Writing and presenting a history paper is primarily something fitting in the "subject" of history, which would then include principles learned in other subjects. Participating in something like a debate club would be, obviously, principally related to rhetoric.
Well, anyway, this is a long post. I hope I haven't horribly confused anyone. The book also argues that the trivium and the quadrivium should all be taught from the very beginning and all considered subjects and not methods. At this point I'm convinced by what they've argued; and again, I'm not expert! Interested in your thoughts/reactions . . .
Amazon.com: Wisdom and Eloquence: A Christian Paradigm for Classical Learning: Robert Littlejohn, Charles T. Evans: Books
I'll be the first to admit I haven't done a lot of reading on classical Christian education, but I have done some. In this book the authors make an interesting claim, and I've come to believe the way they are setting things up is true. I could be wrong, so I thought it would be worth discussing. Dorothy Sayers' Lost Tools of Learning speech/article set forth a basic understanding of classical education and jump-started a movement in that direction. Right. So a lot of our foundational understanding of classical education comes from (has been mediated through) Sayers' understanding of classical education. Well, the authors of this book argue that Sayers' got something wrong, and so now most classical Christians schools follow her slightly-skewed understanding.
They argue (and some of this may be put in my own words as I've munched on what they said) that Sayers' has confused method with material, the manner of teaching something with the subjects that are actually taught. So you have three stages in Sayers': grammar, logic, rhetoric. To quote off some random classical Christian school's website, "every subject has its Trivium." But the authors say this is misguided. Grammar, logic, and rhetoric should not be thought of as "learning stages" but rather as subjects. Whatever value the idea of "learning stages" has, they should not be confused with grammar, logic, and rhetoric.
Let me illustrate. Following Sayer's manner of speaking, many talk of "the grammar of history." Then "the logic of history." Maybe "the rhetoric of history"? So you have the grammar of math, the logic of math, and the rhetoric of math. You have the grammar of theology, the logic of theology, the rhetoric of theology. You have the grammar of Latin, the logic of Latin, and the rhetoric of Latin. And so on. What's the problem? Grammar, logic, and rhetoric are no longer subjects. Would we likewise say that there is a "grammar of grammar, logic of grammar, and rhetoric of grammar"? Sounds silly. "The grammar of logic, the logic of logic, the rhetoric of logic"? No, again sound silly. "The grammar of rhetoric, the logic of rhetoric, the rhetoric of rhetoric"? Again, doesn't make sense.
What Sayer's has accidentally done is removed grammar, logic, and rhetoric from the curriculum by turning these subjects into stages (aka, manners/methods of teaching subjects). But grammar is an actual subject, as is logic and rhetoric. All the subjects can be taught in stages, but the stages shouldn't be called "grammar, logic, and rhetoric." They argue in the book that those teaching in the medieval ages were concerned with the subjects, and not necessarily the method. Hopefully what I've explained here makes sense. Sayer's has equivocated on the words and so it's entered a large level of confusion which makes it hard to understand what the authors of the book have argued regarding her view.
So instead of teaching "the grammar of history," you just teach the basics or foundations or simple facts history. Grammar is a subject, not a stage. Perhaps you don't teach a young child grammar, you teach the alphabet and spelling, etc. But the alphabet and spelling is not grammar. It's inappropriate to call it grammar. And only languages have grammar, so the word should be reserved for that. Likewise, logic. Logic is a subject, not a stage. So maybe you don't teach logic until the child has grown a bit. Or maybe you teach basic principles of logic early on. But it's not right to call it the "grammar of logic," because logic doesn't have grammar. Logic doesn't have a "rhetorical" aspect either. Rhetoric is a subject, not a stage. If a child writes a history paper for presentation, that presentation may include principles of rhetoric (just as it included principles of grammar when forming sentences, etc.), but presenting a history paper should not be equated with teaching rhetoric. Rhetoric is its own stand-alone subject. Writing and presenting a history paper is primarily something fitting in the "subject" of history, which would then include principles learned in other subjects. Participating in something like a debate club would be, obviously, principally related to rhetoric.
Well, anyway, this is a long post. I hope I haven't horribly confused anyone. The book also argues that the trivium and the quadrivium should all be taught from the very beginning and all considered subjects and not methods. At this point I'm convinced by what they've argued; and again, I'm not expert! Interested in your thoughts/reactions . . .