Seeking some advice

[Howard the Reformer]

My wife and I have been attending (visiting) a PCA church in our area for the last few months. The sermons from the pulpit are scripturally sound and we are discussing membership. However, we have a couple of issues that are concerning to the both of us. The area we live in (SE Texas) has a serious deficit of Reformed and Presbyterian Churches. We have visited a number of churches over the last 18 months and have been disappointed in what we heard and observed.

This particular church has two issues that I can see, and I am uncertain as to how I should react. One, the church has women deacons listed on their website and I understand they have women serving as Deacons. The explanation that I heard is that this church does not ordain Deacons and therefore they are allowing women to serve in that capacity. Of course, I have issues with this according to Acts 6 and the PCA BOCO and the WCF. While I do believe this is wrong and biblically incorrect, is this enough to not seek membership?

The second issue is the church serves communion every Lord's Day. I have no issue with the frequency, but women help with distributing the elements. I know the PCA GA has an overture this year to address this on the agenda. I find this to not be correct biblically and out of accord with the WCF and Reformed Presbyterian practices.

I understand many would find these differences to be enough to not join the church, but without any other choices other than churches with vast doctrinal differences, do we join with something that at least is "close" to what we believe.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Ploutos]

Are you and your wife in solid lockstep agreement between the two of you on these issues?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Where at in SE Texas?

 

[bdavidc]

My wife and I have been attending (visiting) a PCA church in our area for the last few months. The sermons from the pulpit are scripturally sound and we are discussing membership. However, we have a couple of issues that are concerning to the both of us. The area we live in (SE Texas) has a serious deficit of Reformed and Presbyterian Churches. We have visited a number of churches over the last 18 months and have been disappointed in what we heard and observed.

This particular church has two issues that I can see, and I am uncertain as to how I should react. One, the church has women deacons listed on their website and I understand they have women serving as Deacons. The explanation that I heard is that this church does not ordain Deacons and therefore they are allowing women to serve in that capacity. Of course, I have issues with this according to Acts 6 and the PCA BOCO and the WCF. While I do believe this is wrong and biblically incorrect, is this enough to not seek membership?

The second issue is the church serves communion every Lord's Day. I have no issue with the frequency, but women help with distributing the elements. I know the PCA GA has an overture this year to address this on the agenda. I find this to not be correct biblically and out of accord with the WCF and Reformed Presbyterian practices.

I understand many would find these differences to be enough to not join the church, but without any other choices other than churches with vast doctrinal differences, do we join with something that at least is "close" to what we believe.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

It's clear that you and your wife are trying to be faithful to Scripture, and that’s commendable. These matters deserve serious consideration, especially when you’re seeking a church home grounded in biblical truth.

When it comes to the question of women serving as deacons, Scripture gives us guidance in passages like 1 Timothy 3:8–13. Verse 12 specifically says, “Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife,” which points clearly to male leadership. The original Greek word in Acts 6:3, ἄνδρες (andres), also refers specifically to men. So biblically, the role of deacon is consistently shown as one given to qualified men. The reasoning some churches use to allow women in this role, such as not ordaining them, still doesn’t align with the pattern set in Scripture.

Regarding women helping distribute the Lord’s Supper, again, there’s no biblical example of this being done by women in the assembled church. The oversight and administration of the ordinances appear tied to the elders, who, according to 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Timothy 3:1–7, are also to be men. While distributing elements may seem like a minor detail, it reflects a larger principle of spiritual leadership and order in worship, and we want to stay within the boundaries God has given.

Now, I completely understand the difficulty of your situation, especially when solid biblical churches are hard to find. It can be tempting to settle for what’s “close,” but Scripture urges us not to compromise. 2 John 1:9–10 warns against partnering with those who do not abide in sound doctrine, and Acts 5:29 reminds us that “we ought to obey God rather than men.” This doesn’t mean you need to be harsh or divisive, it just means staying true to what the Bible says, even when the choices are limited.

If no faithful church is available nearby, you might prayerfully consider gathering with a few like-minded believers in your home, joining a sound Bible study, or even planting something new in time, guided by Scripture. The Lord honors those who seek to worship Him in spirit and truth, even when it’s not easy.

In all this, continue to seek the Lord’s wisdom. His Word is sufficient, and He is faithful to guide those who trust and obey Him.

 

[fredtgreco]

Like Ben, I'd like to know where. I think, technically, I am in SE Texas. Are you far from Katy?

 

[Ploutos]

Someone on PB mentions female deacons and communion attendants at a PCA church.

PB PCA people be like:

 

[pianoviolin]

The explanation that I heard is that this church does not ordain Deacons and therefore they are allowing women to serve in that capacity.

They should ordain male deacons. Now as to commissioning female deaconesses (not ordaining), that is something I am open to. (Partly because of my heritage). (You can see "temporary officers" in the Korean-American Presbyterian Church denom, member NAPARC):

I have no issue with the frequency, but women help with distributing the elements

I grew up in a Korean non-denom/PCA church that had a female deaconess, but she was not ordained. Furthermore, only elders (obviously male), not even male laymen, distributed Communion. So this is going too far, even for me. However, if this is the only decent church in the area, you may have to deal with it.

 

[Andres]

Have you spoken to the session about your concerns? Even as a prospective member, you could bring these matters to their attention and see what they say further. With God all things are possible and perhaps you may be the catalyst the Lord uses to bring reform in that congregation.
What are your other options? Will you relocate for another church? Are you just going to stay home with your family?

 

[javajedi23]

I understand your concerns. I share them. The deal is that this is a bigger issue with the leadership. PCA churches not ordaining anyone in order to "not violate the BCO" is just a ruse for a church to actually violate the BCO and scripture. This shows that the leadership is unwilling to submit to the PCA. It also indicates that they will probably take more "liberties" in the future.

We should be part of a church and in some places we have to compromise a bit and find the best option. I get that. As a long time OPC person we are at a "reformed" Baptist church as it's the best option near us. It we had (or were having) kids we might not have joined as they, of course, don't baptize infants, But our kids our grown and turns out my wife and I both had believers baptism when we first became Christians. If we were baptized as infants and they wanted us to get re-baptized, that would have been a problem.

Attending w/o joining is an option. But pray about joining and I ask others here to pray for you as well.

 

[ShamgarTheJudge]

Is this church the closest to where y'all live?

 

[Edward]

South Texas Presbytery instead of Houston Metro? @Howard the Reformer

 

[WithinThePale]

Regarding women helping distribute the Lord’s Supper, again, there’s no biblical example of this being done by women in the assembled church. The oversight and administration of the ordinances appear tied to the elders, who, according to 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Timothy 3:1–7, are also to be men. While distributing elements may seem like a minor detail, it reflects a larger principle of spiritual leadership and order in worship, and we want to stay within the boundaries God has given.

How would one go about arguing from scripture that the elements ought only be distributed by the elders? I've see this practiced, but didn't say anything because I wasn't sure I could really back it from scripture (normative principle congregation, I think it would be an uphill battle to get anyone to acknowledge that there's any spiritual good in taking communion)

 

[Cornelius Van Halen]

WCF cites:

Matthew 28:19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 11:20, 23. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.... For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread.

1 Corinthians 4:1. Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

Hebrews 5:4. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

 

[TheInquirer]

If it were the best option, I would attend and then wait for an opening to humbly bring up the concern over time.

 

[Howard the Reformer]

Are you and your wife in solid lockstep agreement between the two of you on these issues?

Yes, we are. However, we both are wanting to be associated with a Reformed Church and both of us are in agreement on the choice I have described.
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Where at in SE Texas?

I am in the Conroe Texas area.
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Have you spoken to the session about your concerns? Even as a prospective member, you could bring these matters to their attention and see what they say further. With God all things are possible and perhaps you may be the catalyst the Lord uses to bring reform in that congregation.
What are your other options? Will you relocate for another church? Are you just going to stay home with your family?

When we decide to pursue membership, which is still a question, then I do intend to inquire about the issues I raised.
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Is this church the closest to where y'all live?

As far as a reformed church the answer to that question is a yes.
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South Texas Presbytery instead of Houston Metro? @Howard the Reformer

I am not sure which presbytery the church is a part of. I would guess Houston Metro since the church is close to Houston.

 

[Howard the Reformer]

If it were the best option, I would attend and then wait for an opening to humbly bring up the concern over time.

I also am considering that approach. I believe by asking in the correct manner maybe I could gain some understanding as to the mindset of this position.

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

If there isn't another church that is more like-minded within a reasonable distance, I would continue to go and join with a spirit of humility and love toward the congregation and elders. I would also seek to bring these issues up during the membership interview, not to argue or try to "settle" anything, but just so the session knows where I'm coming from, and so that as I got more involved I could perhaps continue to nudge gently on those issues.

While these things do indeed matter, in my mind they are secondary issues that shouldn't prohibit you from joining if there aren't any better options around. True churches may be more or less pure, and it is far better for you to join with a congregation which is generally sound than to just sit at home wishing the perfect church existed.

 

[jwithnell]

Here's my concern: where else is the church willing to fit the scriptures to its purposes? That's the issue at stake. In my experience over the decades, redefining the requirements for church officers is the breach in the dam of fidelity to the Bible.

 

[Howard the Reformer]

Here's my concern: where else is the church willing to fit the scriptures to its purposes? That's the issue at stake. In my experience over the decades, redefining the requirements for church officers is the breach in the dam of fidelity to the Bible.

I understand your point, and find troubling as you apparently do, the issue of Deacons in reference to ordination and women. I have heard the argument presented that the reason women were not specifically made Deacons at the time of the writings of the Apostle Paul was cultural. I always answer back if the "cultural" reasoning is presented with a question: "What else in the Bible, in your opinion, is cultural?"

If we decide to pursue membership, I will inquire gently about the viewpoint of the Session on this and other Biblical issues.

 

[Ploutos]

Trajectory makes a difference as well. Try to discern whether a church engages in a practice out of long-held custom, ignorance, or a deliberate effort to be "edgy" or aligned with the progressive wing of the PCA. I am willing to turn a charitably blind eye to a number of issues when it is clear that the overall bent of the church is toward Biblical and confessional fidelity.

 

[DanSSwing]

If there isn't another church that is more like-minded within a reasonable distance, I would continue to go and join with a spirit of humility and love toward the congregation and elders. I would also seek to bring these issues up during the membership interview, not to argue or try to "settle" anything, but just so the session knows where I'm coming from, and so that as I got more involved I could perhaps continue to nudge gently on those issues.

While these things do indeed matter, in my mind they are secondary issues that shouldn't prohibit you from joining if there aren't any better options around. True churches may be more or less pure, and it is far better for you to join with a congregation which is generally sound than to just sit at home wishing the perfect church existed.

Agreed. While I agree with the OP's position, these are definitely secondary issues. While I disagree with this church's practice, they aren't in themselves an indicator that it is not a true church. Thus there is no excuse here to forsake the assembly if this is the best option within a reasonable distance.

 

[alexanderjames]

Speaking from outside a presbyterian church context, I would be less concerned about such particular practices in and of themselves (I personally have no issue with women participating in helping to distribute bread and wine in the Supper, and we have Scriptural example of "deacon" for women). I'd be more concerned about the spirit in which you and your family (in this case I assume just your wife) find yourselves within the congregation. Are these people sincerely servant-hearted and caring, God-fearing with submission to biblical precedents, humble and open, seeking righteousness and the kingdom of God in their midst? Granted, these things are not always immediately discernible, but merely having outwardly scripturally sound exegesis does not cut it.

 

[pianoviolin]

Granted, these things are not always immediately discernible, but merely having outwardly scripturally sound exegesis does not cut it.

Yes, we must worship in Spirit and in Truth. A congregation may uphold the confessions strictly, but if they have not love, generosity, or kindness then it is not pleasing to God. We need Spirit and Truth.

 

[Edward]

I don't know if anyone else has posted it (I've been out of town and am just catching up) but it appears to be Grace Presbyterian in the Woodlands.

Leadership

Leadership

www.gpcwoodlands.org

As far as the Lord's Supper goes, in most of the churches I've been associated with, the elder has handed it to the person at the end of the row, and it is passed down the row. So generally one would get the elements from a woman or an unordained man depending on who was next to you in the pew and which way it was being passed.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I don't know if anyone else has posted it (I've been out of town and am just catching up) but it appears to be Grace Presbyterian in the Woodlands.

Leadership

Leadership

www.gpcwoodlands.org

As far as the Lord's Supper goes, in most of the churches I've been associated with, the elder has handed it to the person at the end of the row, and it is passed down the row. So generally one would get the elements from a woman or an unordained man depending on who was next to you in the pew and which way it was being passed.

Yeah, if someone is going to Grace in the Woodlands… Our church is definitely an alternative.

 

[Edward]

Our church is definitely an alternative.

Your church is as close to Conroe as I am to the church I attend. It shouldn't be a problem on Sunday mornings (particularly as early as you meet) but could be unpleasant on weekdays at rush hour.

I'm a little surprised to see elected female deacons in Houston Metro in an unordained diaconate.

@fredtgreco As I understand the BCO, if a church isn't big enough to have deacons, the duties fall to the session, not some other body assembled from the congregation. "Diaconal Ministry Team: The word diakonos means "servant". Each member of the Diaconal Ministry Team is elected from and voted on by the members of GPC to lead us in areas of service, mercy ministry, oversight of the campus, and care for the budget."

Except for omitting developing the grace of liberality, that sounds a lot like what's contained in BCO 9-2.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Your church is as close to Conroe as I am to the church I attend. It shouldn't be a problem on Sunday mornings (particularly as early as you meet) but could be unpleasant on weekdays at rush hour.

I'm a little surprised to see elected female deacons in Houston Metro in an unordained diaconate.

@fredtgreco As I understand the BCO, if a church isn't big enough to have deacons, the duties fall to the session, not some other body assembled from the congregation. "Diaconal Ministry Team: The word diakonos means "servant". Each member of the Diaconal Ministry Team is elected from and voted on by the members of GPC to lead us in areas of service, mercy ministry, oversight of the campus, and care for the budget."

Except for omitting developing the grace of liberality, that sounds a lot like what's contained in BCO 9-2.

There’s a church here with congregationally elected female session advisors…. It blows my mind the sheer audacity.

BTW… forget about Conroe… we’ve got multiple families coming down from Willis!

 

[Edward]

BTW… forget about Conroe… we’ve got multiple families coming down from Willis!

Well, if @Howard the Reformer lives on the far side of Conroe, there's a church up in Huntsville that has male deacons. And a nice looking web site. And it looks like the Huntsville church is planting a church in the Woodlands which might be acceptable.

Huntsville

Our Church

Our Church

www.cpchuntsville.org

Woodlands

The Woodlands Reformed Church (PCA)

The Woodlands Reformed Church is located in north Houston in The Woodlands, Texas. We are in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA).

woodlandsreformed.org

Spring

Spring Cypress Presbyterian Church: Spring, TX

Spring Cypress Presbyterian Church: Spring, TX

www.springcypresschurch.com