Setting up of communion

[lifelong_sinner]

Hello all. I have a question about communion, as to the preparing of it. I know of a couple, who use to attend a DoC church, and on saturday evenings, they went to the church, they would get everything set up for the communion service on Sunday. They would go ahead and put the cups in the trays, and pour the grape juice in them, then leave them in the frig. They also would get the bread wafers put into the trays.

Now neither one was part of church leadership, this was just a volunteer thing, but was doing this wrong? I cant seem to find anything specific about this, and i guess im just wondering if the elders should have been the ones to do this? Is it ok for just regular members to have anything to do with communion?

 

[Jack K]

What happens before the service is not part of the Supper. It's preferable to have some bread left for the pastor to break and/or something left for him to pour as part of the administration of the Supper during the service, but he shouldn't have to pour every cup. The pastor has other things to do, so it helps to have someone else prepare the elements. Some churches will have that be elders or deacons as a part of their service, but it doesn't need to be.

We don't believe the elements are magical or need special handling. Where elders need to be involved is in the distribution of the Supper, where spiritual care for the flock and fencing of the table enters in. This is not happening when the little cups are being filled the night before, so it doesn't need to be an elder job.

Since I have had the job of filling little plastic cups, I will add this: Sometimes the cups tend to stick in the trays if they are filled the night before and then refrigerated in the trays. The plastic seems to expand, and then congregants can't get the cup out when they grab for one during the service. If your congregation is experiencing this, that would be a reason to move away from filling cups the night before.

 

[Andres]

If the minister pours the wine directly from the flagon into the common cup and breaks the common loaf of bread at the common table, then you can avoid all these other issues.

 

[Northern Crofter]

If the minister pours the wine directly from the flagon into the common cup and breaks the common loaf of bread at the common table, then you can avoid all these other issues.

Thanks for this - I didn't want to be "that guy." But there is something to be said for seeing the pouring and the breaking of the visible elements....

 

[TylerRay]

If the minister pours the wine directly from the flagon into the common cup and breaks the common loaf of bread at the common table, then you can avoid all these other issues.

Ah, but who sets up the tables?

 

[Andres]

Ah, but who sets up the tables?

Whomever arrives to the building first!

 

[jwithnell]

I used make the bread the night before or had it ready to bake Sunday morning. I'd set up the table at church soon after arriving in the morning.

It'd be rather superstitious to attach a meaning or sense of leadership. When you read about people serving in the temple under the older administration it implies there were ordinary tasks that needed to be done to support worship that involved no priestly act.

(I've since handed off the job to a newer member to get her involved more.)

 

[Jake]

A friend asked me about this recently, as he was considering how the Disciples "made ready" or "prepared" the Passover (Matthew 26:19). I don't want to take this too far, but I think there is something to the elders both preparing and serving at the distribution of the Supper. At our church, it is our practice that an elder, rotating each time, sets out the table and gets the elements ready for distribution, either the night before or early the morning of. Others have been involved of course; we also rotate women who make the bread for example, and someone else washes the cloth beforehand. And some elders may have their wife or another family member help prepare.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Our deacons handle all the preparations.

 

[Ben Zartman]

How did the bread and wine that Jesus used get there? Was it fetched up my a disciple, or placed by the caterer/owner of the upper room?
Who set the table? Who washed the cup/cups beforehand? None of it matters: Jesus took bread that was in the basket on the table, and the wine that was in the pitcher, and we have no indication that He gave any thought to where any of it came from or who put it there, or who had touched it first.

 

[DanSSwing]

I'm pretty sure that it's lawful to serve the Lord on the Sabbath.

 

[Jake]

How did the bread and wine that Jesus used get there? Was it fetched up my a disciple, or placed by the caterer/owner of the upper room?
Who set the table? Who washed the cup/cups beforehand? None of it matters: Jesus took bread that was in the basket on the table, and the wine that was in the pitcher, and we have no indication that He gave any thought to where any of it came from or who put it there, or who had touched it first.

We don't know all the details, but we do have some of the story:
17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?” 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’ ” 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover. (Matthew 26:17-19 ESV)

I don't know that I would summarize the teaching of this passage that "we have no indication that He gave any thought to where any of it came from or who put it there." It seemed very intentional that Jesus directed the Disciples to setup the Passover.

 

[Edward]

If the minister pours the wine directly from the flagon into the common cup and breaks the common loaf of bread at the common table

OK, thinking of practical issues - I can see re-filling the cup as needed (and probably needing multiple pitchers of wine) but where are you going to get a loaf big enough for 800 folks?

 

[Northern Crofter]

OK, thinking of practical issues - I can see re-filling the cup as needed (and probably needing multiple pitchers of wine) but where are you going to get a loaf big enough for 800 folks?

There is nothing prohibiting multiple cups or multiple loaves. The taking, blessing, and sharing of the cup, and the breaking, thanking, and sharing of the bread is what we see in Christ's original institution and Paul's reforming of the Church at Corinth. If 12 loaves are needed, the minister breaks all 12 as he speaks the words of institution.

How many cups or loaves are needed for the brethren to share is a circumstance concerning the worship of God which can be ordered by Christian prudence, as are things like passing the elements around a table from beleiver to beleiver or coming up to a table to receive them from the minister.

Simply take the verbs and nouns in Christ's institution and follow them: take "bread," bless, brake, give, say, take, eat, [eat]; take "the cup," give thanks, give, say, drink, [drink]; sing; go. (Matthew's version)

From the use of a shared cup it would seem to me they passed the elements at the table and partook one-by-one - waiting to partake together once the elements were distributed is common today but it is hard to see how that fits the Scriptural narrative in places like Matt.26.27 where He takes "the cup," gives "it" to "them" and says, "Drink ye all of it."

But we do know take, bless, brake, give, say, take, eat; give thanks, give, say, drink; sing; go. We do know it was bread that was broken and a ("the") cup that was shared.

 

[TylerRay]

There is nothing prohibiting multiple cups or multiple loaves. The taking, blessing, and sharing of the cup, and the breaking, thanking, and sharing of the bread is what we see in Christ's original institution and Paul's reforming of the Church at Corinth. If 12 loaves are needed, the minister breaks all 12 as he speaks the words of institution.

How many cups or loaves are needed for the brethren to share is a circumstance concerning the worship of God which can be ordered by Christian prudence, as are things like passing the elements around a table from beleiver to beleiver or coming up to a table to receive them from the minister.

Simply take the verbs and nouns in Christ's institution and follow them: take "bread," bless, brake, give, say, take, eat, [eat]; take "the cup," give thanks, give, say, drink, [drink]; sing; go. (Matthew's version)

From the use of a shared cup it would seem to me they passed the elements at the table and partook one-by-one - waiting to partake together once the elements were distributed is common today but it is hard to see how that fits the Scriptural narrative in places like Matt.26.27 where He takes "the cup," gives "it" to "them" and says, "Drink ye all of it."

But we do know take, bless, brake, give, say, take, eat; give thanks, give, say, drink; sing; go. We do know it was bread that was broken and a ("the") cup that was shared.

To clarify, brother -- you're saying it's permissible when necessary to have multiple common cups, and multiple common loaves, correct? As opposed to Individual cups and loaves.

 

[Northern Crofter]

To clarify, brother -- you're saying it's permissible when necessary to have multiple common cups, and multiple common loaves, correct? As opposed to Individual cups and loaves.

Yes: https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/participation-in-the-lord’s-supper.113268/post-1358359

 

[Andres]

OK, thinking of practical issues - I can see re-filling the cup as needed (and probably needing multiple pitchers of wine) but where are you going to get a loaf big enough for 800 folks?

I don’t think local congregations should be that large. But I suppose use more than one loaf if absolutely necessary.

 

[Ben Zartman]

We don't know all the details, but we do have some of the story:
17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?” 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’ ” 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover. (Matthew 26:17-19 ESV)

I don't know that I would summarize the teaching of this passage that "we have no indication that He gave any thought to where any of it came from or who put it there." It seemed very intentional that Jesus directed the Disciples to setup the Passover.

Thanks for citing this. I always took it to mean that the disciples made the arrangements, not that they actually prepared the food, since they didn't live in Jerusalem and presumably had no cooking utensils, lambs, flour, etc.
Two questions:
Do you believe it was the disciples who killed the lamb and baked the bread?
Do you believe it was necessary for them to do so--in other words, if it were shown that someone else cooked the food and brought it up, would your understanding of the Supper and its administration change?

 

[TylerRay]

OK, thinking of practical issues - I can see re-filling the cup as needed (and probably needing multiple pitchers of wine) but where are you going to get a loaf big enough for 800 folks?

The way it has been done in the past (Scottish communions have sometimes been huge, with multiple congregations assembling together) is that they would have multiple tables, each with a loaf and a cup.

 

[Edward]

I don’t think local congregations should be that large.

So how many should we let in before I start turning them away at the door and tell them they can't worship that week?

 

[VictorBravo]

I used make the bread the night before or had it ready to bake Sunday morning. I'd set up the table at church soon after arriving in the morning.

My wife used to bake the bread. Now I do beforehand. The deacons set things up. I never gave it more thought than focusing on fencing the table and exhorting those present to contemplate the full meaning of the Lord's Supper.

 

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

So how many should we let in before I start turning them away at the door and tell them they can't worship that week?

No ones talking about turning people away. I don’t want to speak for him but he would probably say (as would I) that long before this point the church should have formed at least one daughter church in another part of the area.

 

[Northern Crofter]

So how many should we let in before I start turning them away at the door and tell them they can't worship that week?

I think it is more the general idea that you should form many smaller congregations instead of one large one, not that you should turn people away if they suddenly show up one week. If a congregation is getting large, praise God and seek to divide it into two. Not only does this help with practical issues regarding the Lord's Supper, but it better facilitates the elders watching over the souls of the congregation prior to administration of it, and it expands the preaching of the Gospel in a particular area.

As an aside, perhaps there is a spiritual connection/application in the breaking of bread at the last supper and the loaves in the desert/on the mountain that were broken and then multiplied. It always strikes me that the same words and order of operations is used all three times:

In the desert - "He... took the five loaves..., and blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to His disciples...." (Matthew 14.19). And then it multiplied.

On the mountain - "He....took the seven loaves..., and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to His disciples....." (Matthew 15.35-36). And then it multiplied.

In the upper room - " Jesus took the loaf, and when He had blessed, He brake it, and gave it to the disciples...." (Matthew 26.26). And then, in a different way, it multiplied: "After the same manner also He took the cup..." (1 Corinthians 11:25) "and when He had given thanks, He gave it them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it. For this is My blood of the new Testament that is shed for many, for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26.27-28)

 

[Edward]

he would probably say (as would I) that long before this point the church should have formed at least one daughter church in another part of the area.

I think it is more the general idea that you should form many smaller congregations

Well, one problem I see with that solution is that of the dozen or so successful local church plants we've been involved with, one of them is over 600 members, so that solution may not work as well as hoped. And one of the closer locations to our facility got a complaint from another PCA church that we were putting it in too close to them. Three of our church plants are close enough that they started meeting in a Sunday School room in our facility before moving to their present locations east, north and northwest of our building (including the one that generated the complaint).

 

[Charles Johnson]

To clarify, brother -- you're saying it's permissible when necessary to have multiple common cups, and multiple common loaves, correct? As opposed to Individual cups and loaves.

The language of the Book of Discipline and the acts of the CoS seem to suggest that's normal.