Should we kill prisoners in retaliation when terrorists do the same?
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littlepeople
Puritan Board Freshman
I don't think so, and I think the situation with Jordan is something different. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but the prisoners executed there were basically on death row and just got fast tracked.
Who is "we"? I'm not that invested. The USG routinely fields double-standard policies.
I judge all the parties in the conflict mentioned, or various other conflicts, by the same moral standard.
Two moral outrages don't cancel each other.
Upping the ante (e.g. blowing up wedding parties or neighborhoods that might be visited by a "bad guy") hasn't had much of damping effect on an enemy's enthusiasm for violence, that I've seen.
The USG has accused one foreign govt of war crimes for supposedly committing similar tit-for-tat scenario.
If they were now to employ the tactic, would they then apologize to those they accused of wrongdoing?
I judge all the parties in the conflict mentioned, or various other conflicts, by the same moral standard.
Two moral outrages don't cancel each other.
Upping the ante (e.g. blowing up wedding parties or neighborhoods that might be visited by a "bad guy") hasn't had much of damping effect on an enemy's enthusiasm for violence, that I've seen.
The USG has accused one foreign govt of war crimes for supposedly committing similar tit-for-tat scenario.
If they were now to employ the tactic, would they then apologize to those they accused of wrongdoing?
I cannot see the justification for the threat or killing a prisoner being morally viable. Not if the soul purpose is retaliation or in an attempt to stop the same by an opposing group.
The Biblical death penalty was always based on the actions of the individual not on what others of a like minded group did or carried out.
The Biblical death penalty was always based on the actions of the individual not on what others of a like minded group did or carried out.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Plus certain terrorist groups would just say to themselves, They went to heaven to be with Allah and their "rewards". They're big on martyrdom — though it will be a terrible shock when they wake up in Hell.
And, as said above, two wrongs don't make a right.
And, as said above, two wrongs don't make a right.
Edm
Puritan Board Sophomore
I do not feel that they should be killed in retaliation. These people are not exactly the same as the prisoners in Gitmo. I also believe that we should not hold these people in custody forever. iSIS is something totally different than an opposing army. They should be told that joining ISIS is a death penalty offense. If caught they will be executed. And swiftly. Not in retaliation, but to rid the world of their danger. I do not feel it is unGodly to defend people from danger.
aadebayo
Puritan Board Freshman
Hello
Let me start my response to this thread by quoting from Genesis 9:6 which reads "6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Theologians believe that this key verse in the context of Genesis 8:20-9:17 ( Noahic Covenant) gives the State the authority to punish people who commit murder. From what we have been told, both were responsible for terror attacks that led to the loss of lives. So Jordan is right to execute both convicts. The timing though seems to be that this was in retaliation. Well that is between the Jordanian authorities and God.
Let me start my response to this thread by quoting from Genesis 9:6 which reads "6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Theologians believe that this key verse in the context of Genesis 8:20-9:17 ( Noahic Covenant) gives the State the authority to punish people who commit murder. From what we have been told, both were responsible for terror attacks that led to the loss of lives. So Jordan is right to execute both convicts. The timing though seems to be that this was in retaliation. Well that is between the Jordanian authorities and God.
The answer to the original question for Christians is, no.
Unfortunately I do not have supporting Scripture organized, so here are what some other men have said.
James White released a blog article today in response to ISIS beheading Christian Copts.
Consider reading the book Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand. He was a Lutheran pastor who was thrown in prison by the Nazis and tortured daily simply because he was a Christian. There is a 30 minute video recording of him on Youtube. This mans puts me to shame.
Unfortunately I do not have supporting Scripture organized, so here are what some other men have said.
James White released a blog article today in response to ISIS beheading Christian Copts.
Do we dare pray for our enemies? These cannot be the words of our Lord Jesus Christ can they? (Matt. 5:43-48) Shouldn't we instead kill those who kill us? Or threaten those who threaten us?
Consider reading the book Tortured For Christ by Richard Wurmbrand. He was a Lutheran pastor who was thrown in prison by the Nazis and tortured daily simply because he was a Christian. There is a 30 minute video recording of him on Youtube. This mans puts me to shame.
joebonni63
Puritan Board Freshman
this isis thing has the makings of holocaust do we really need that again ..........
If there are already prisoners convicted of terrorism, then this crime carries with it the possible (just) punishment of execution. In this case, I see nothing wrong with creating a pool of convicted terrorists and dispatching a set number (publicly even) by execution in retaliation for every additional crime. This would be just (though the results might be merely to recruit more Jihadis....though this, too, is no reason NOT to execute them publicly...since there is no virtue in being cowed into appeasement...some bullies only back down due to overwhelming force and some won't back down and just have to be forced down/eliminated).
NOTE WELL: This issue has nothing to do with praying for our enemies. In a war, you can pray for your enemy even while pursuing wise courses of military action to best eliminate the threat.
In response to the James White blog: He seems to be confusing why we are fighting terrorists. We are not trying to "grow the kingdom" by fighting terrorists. And we need not cry out for "vengeance" but only justice.
NOTE WELL: This issue has nothing to do with praying for our enemies. In a war, you can pray for your enemy even while pursuing wise courses of military action to best eliminate the threat.
In response to the James White blog: He seems to be confusing why we are fighting terrorists. We are not trying to "grow the kingdom" by fighting terrorists. And we need not cry out for "vengeance" but only justice.
aadebayo
Puritan Board Freshman
Well said. The bible gives governments the power and command to punish evil doers. The stipulation of the death penalty by scripture has not been repealed. Jordan was absolutely right in executing those terrorists. I find it very annoying that my country does not have the death penalty. No wonder those 2 terrorists murdered the soldier in cold blood in 2013. I believe that they would have thought twice, if they knew that their evil act would lead to them being executed.
Matthew 5:43-48 was written in the context of private individuals. Hence it does not apply to governments responsibility to punish evil.
whirlingmerc
Puritan Board Sophomore
We should not. That's not going to bring peace and isn't just.
In the case of the retaliations, recently dozens of coptics in Ethiopia were beheaded. Why? because ISIS was mad at Jordan. It's unjust. The optics had nothing to do with it... but...
All people long for justice, but this is a broken world and the people in it are broken and approach justice with a level of dysfunction sometime
In the case of the retaliations, recently dozens of coptics in Ethiopia were beheaded. Why? because ISIS was mad at Jordan. It's unjust. The optics had nothing to do with it... but...
All people long for justice, but this is a broken world and the people in it are broken and approach justice with a level of dysfunction sometime
Pilgrim Standard
Puritan Board Sophomore
I have to agree with Pastor White here.
Humans are not bater/ransom material, nor is human life to be taken as a retaliatory measure. There is a morality in the death penalty in the scripture, and it is not related to skipping civil justice process alltogether for public retaliatory killing as Jordan has just done. The process should be independant of retaliation, and entirely according to the right use of the sword. If a man is convicted of the death penalty justly, then under the terms of justice should he be solely executed. To do anything more is to pevert just execution.
We must remember that We as civilians aught to pray for the conversion of enemies & The civil government is given the sword of execution. This is not to imply that civilians do not have the right/duty to the sword of defense against immediate, imminent danger.
aadebayo
Puritan Board Freshman
Well said Benjamin.
Who said anything about skipping "the civil justice process"?
Due process could be followed and he could be justly sentenced to death....the execution of that just sentence being contingent or tied to the timing of terror attacks. He would be solely sentenced to die due to the terms of justice. But the timing of the execution could be tied to external events. No injustice would be done.
One of the uses of the death penalty in the past was that of deterrence. For that reason, many past executions were done publicly and the body was even exhibited. I do not believe this was unjust (though some may have mistaken this for entertainment purposes or for public amusement). A delay of execution or doing executions too secretly decreases their deterrent effect.
Ecclesiastes 8: So then, I have seen the wicked buried, those who used to go in and out from the holy place, and they are soon forgotten in the city where they did thus. This too is futility. Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.
Pilgrim Standard
Puritan Board Sophomore
You don't think postponing justice being done for the sake of retaliation as some supposed deterrent is going beyond just execution?
How can it be said to be right to add to the God given authority of the civil government's right of just execution, another right of "held execution timing for added effect" against a nation? I am uncertain where this example or power is given to governments. It seems to me to be going beyond justice.
I do not advocate "secret" execution, nor oppose publication that justice has been served along with publication of God's Word, as a deterrents. I do agree that there is a morality in timing of Civil Government Just Execution, I just have not seen an authority to tie it to external events that are not the work of the hands of the condemned. Ecclesiastes 8:11 you quoted does say "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."
Is there an example of this in Scripture?
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
That phrase reminds me a bit of a German military order as the armies began to collapse near the end of World War II. Any soldier found away from his unit would be presumed to be trying to desert or surrender, and would be executed following a court martial. No summary executions - due process was followed before the execution was carried out.
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