The Covenant of Grace and Children.

[PuritanCovenanter]

Here is something that I think will point out a significant learning opportunity. Were children ever considered to be in the Covenant of Grace just by their participation in any of the Covenants? Just because a child is a part of the Abrahamic Covenant doesn't imply that he was a member of the Covenant of Grace in my understanding. And just because a child was a part of the Mosaic Covenant didn't imply that he was a member of the Covenant of Grace either. Both of these Covenants had promises that administered the Covenant of Grace and maybe you could say that they both administered the Covenant of Works in the fact that there was a blessing and Cursing motif' also. But I don't believe the two mix. This was the point that Rich and I were getting into here. http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=23640&page=3

These are some of my points from that thread.

The sign didn't signify the same thing for Abraham's individual children necessarily. But it was a sign of a covenant that had national promises also that were not necessarily spiritual promises. Some of the promises to Abraham and his seed (not the seed which is Christ) were outside of the Everlasting Covenant as Abraham and Ishmael found out in Genesis 17. Take a minute to Read Genesis Chapter 17. Baptism in the New Testament is a picture of one who is buried in Christ and forgiven of sin. That is not necessarily so with the Covenant of Circumcision.

I am not convinced the sign of circumcision meant the same thing for everyone who was circumcised after Abraham. Case in point it didn't mean the same thing for Ishmael or anyone who was not a member of the Covenant of Grace after him. In relation to the text in Romans 4, I don't see its point about circumcison being a complete exposition of what circumcision was to Abraham. There is no mention of those who would be cut off In Romans 4 if they did not receive this sign of the Covenant of Circumcision who where his decendants.

First off I do believe the sign was spiritual to others beside Abraham. It wasn't for everyone who was descended from Abraham. I also believe the COW is found in Abraham as there is a curse in it of being cut off. That is different for the New Covenant Member according to Jeremiah 31. The Everlasting Covenant promised in Isaac is the Covenant of Grace. The signification of righteousness passes on to one and not to the other.

In Genesis 17 does God establish his Everlasting Covenant with Ishmael whom Abraham petitioned God for? Does God make promises to Abraham (outside of this everlasting Covenant that is in Isaac) within the covenant of circumcision, that allowed Ishmael to live with Abraham and be blessed, that didn't pertain to the Everlasting Covenant that Ismael was not a part of? By circumcision one was permitted to dwell with Abraham even if he was not a descedent of his. Circumcision had promises of land and inhabitation of the land that were not necessarily spiritual. The promises of inhabitation of the land and prosperity did not necessarily grant any spiritual inclusion except that God was God over the people, unrighteous and righteous alike. Baptism is no where spoken of like this. It is always spoken of in a way that points to the forgiveness of sin and union with Christ.

After Rich and I go over these points and he disagrees with me we turn the discussion towards Galatians Chapters 3,4, and 5. We discuss the Two Covenants that proceed from Abraham.

Anyways this ought to be a good starting place.

All of the other threads got a little to out of hand for me and were just side issues to this in my opinion.

But I aint always correct. Now play nice.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Here is something that I think will point out a significant learning opportunity. Were children ever considered to be in the Covenant of Grace just by their participation in any of the Covenants? Just because a child is a part of the Abrahamic Covenant doesn't imply that he was a member of the Covenant of Grace in my understanding. And just because a child was a part of the Mosaic Covenant didn't imply that he was a member of the Covenant of Grace either. Both of these Covenants had promises that ministered to the Covenant of Grace and maybe you could say that they both ministered to the Covenant of Works in the fact that there was a blessing and Cursing motif' also. But I don't believe the two mix. This was the point that Rich and I were getting into here. http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=23640&page=3

These are some of my points from that thread.

The sign didn't signify the same thing for Abraham's individual children necessarily. But it was a sign of a covenant that had national promises also that were not necessarily spiritual promises. Some of the promises to Abraham and his seed (not the seed which is Christ) were outside of the Everlasting Covenant as Abraham and Ishmael found out in Genesis 17. Take a minute to Read Genesis Chapter 17. Baptism in the New Testament is a picture of one who is buried in Christ and forgiven of sin. That is not necessarily so with the Covenant of Circumcision.

I am not convinced the sign of circumcision meant the same thing for everyone who was circumcised after Abraham. Case in point it didn't mean the same thing for Ishmael or anyone who was not a member of the Covenant of Grace after him. In relation to the text in Romans 4, I don't see its point about circumcison being a complete exposition of what circumcision was to Abraham. There is no mention of those who would be cut off In Romans 4 if they did not receive this sign of the Covenant of Circumcision who where his decendants.

First off I do believe the sign was spiritual to others beside Abraham. It wasn't for everyone who was descended from Abraham. I also believe the COW is found in Abraham as there is a curse in it of being cut off. That is different for the New Covenant Member according to Jeremiah 31. The Everlasting Covenant promised in Isaac is the Covenant of Grace. The signification of righteousness passes on to one and not to the other.

In Genesis 17 does God establish his Everlasting Covenant with Ishmael whom Abraham petitioned God for? Does God make promises to Abraham (outside of this everlasting Covenant that is in Isaac) within the covenant of circumcision, that allowed Ishmael to live with Abraham and be blessed, that didn't pertain to the Everlasting Covenant that Ismael was not a part of? By circumcision one was permitted to dwell with Abraham even if he was not a descedent of his. Circumcision had promises of land and inhabitation of the land that were not necessarily spiritual. The promises of inhabitation of the land and prosperity did not necessarily grant any spiritual inclusion except that God was God over the people, unrighteous and righteous alike. Baptism is no where spoken of like this. It is always spoken of in a way that points to the forgiveness of sin and union with Christ.

After Rich and I go over these points and he disagrees with me we turn the discussion towards Galatians Chapters 3,4, and 5. We discuss the Two Covenants that proceed from Abraham.

Anyways this ought to be a good starting place.

All of the other threads got a little to out of hand for me and were just side issues to this in my opinion.

But I aint always correct. Now play nice.

I won't get into the discussion yet, until I think a little, but I have a feeling you and Rich are going to disagree again!

 

[aleksanderpolo]

Randy, I think the problem is in your presupposition. Let me ask you a question, in your mind, is it possible for someone to be under the external administration of the covenant of grace (i.e. circumcision, offering of sacrifice etc) but not having the reality of the covenant of grace (faith, salvation etc)?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Randy, I think the problem is in your presupposition. Let me ask you a question, in your mind, is it possible for someone to be under the external administration of the covenant of grace (i.e. circumcision, offering of sacrifice etc) but not having the reality of the covenant of grace (faith, salvation etc)?

Reread my post. I think part of the problem may be in the paedo presupposition. The Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants administer both the CoG and the CoW. Do you understand this?

 

[AV1611]

Randy,

Have a listen to these
http://www.cprcextra.co.uk/historycovenant6b.m3u
http://www.cprc.co.uk/m3u/christsseedsseed.m3u
http://www.cprc.co.uk/m3u/fatherabraham8.m3u

Read this: http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_7.html

I would recommend this also:

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Randy,

Have a listen to these

Please just participate in the discussion. You can discuss what the books say in comparison to what I have asked but I want to discourse with people not articles or books.

I don't want to get into a book or MP3 recommendation session here. Believe me I think I understand the paedo position a little more than you give me credit for. I have been a member of both RPCNA and PCA congregations and a member of this board for a few years. I have heard the paedo position.

 

[aleksanderpolo]

How do you view the warning in Hebrew 10:30-31 "For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
"? Do you see the NC administer both the CoG and the CoW as well?

Reread my post. I think part of the problem may be in the paedo presupposition. The Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants administer both the CoG and the CoW. Do you understand this?

Rev Winzer if you are here, I would like to know what you think of this statement, I am certainly not knowledgable to state the consensus of paedobaptist's opinion on this.

 

[AV1611]

Please just participate in the discussion. You can discuss what the books say in comparison to what I have asked but I want to discourse with people not articles or books.

I understand but these are relevant and helped me when I was thinking the same as you. But you want my intereaction, well here goes.

The infants of believers are not included in the Covenant of Grace head for head. The seed of Abraham is Christ and the elect in him. God has made a covenant with them in eternity and realises this covenant in time. The Abrahamic Covenant was simply a revelation of the one CofG established in eternity.

Hence I agree with Hoeksema saying

that the Word of God knows only of one seed of Abraham, the spiritual, the elect, the children of the promise. This is true both of the old and of the new dispensation. It is not correct to say that in the old dispensation the Jews were the seed of Abraham, while in the new dispensation believers are this seed. The Jews never were the seed of Abraham. It is correct to say, that for a time the seed of Abraham were found exclusively among Abraham's descendants, as they are found now among all nations. But Scripture never identifies Abraham's descendants with the seed of Abraham. The latter, the children of the promise, are at all times only the believers. In the times of the Old Testament they are found in the generations of Seth, Noah, Shem, Abraham Israel. In the new dispensation they are among all nations, there being no difference anymore between Jew and Gentile. But wherever they are found the children of the promise, named after Abraham as the father of believers, are always the true children of God, the believers. These and these only are the seed of Abraham.​

And with him saying

It is the very plain truth, revealed in Scripture and verified in all the history of the Church of God in the world from the beginning, that God causes His people to develop in the line of generations. Always He establishes His covenant organically in the line of continued generations. This is already evident from the protevangel in Gen. 3:15: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed." This is clear from the establishment of the covenant with Noah. "And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you and with your seed after you." Gen. 9:9. Again this truth is revealed in Gen. 17:7. "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee." This is evident from the entire historical line of development, for the line of God's covenant runs in the line of generations, from Seth to Noah, from Shem to Abraham, from Abraham to Israel, from Israel to Christ, and even in the new dispensation it is very plain, that God has His people in the line of continued generations. Hence, the apostle Peter can preach on the day of Pentecost: "The promise is unto you and to your children and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call," Acts 2:39. And when the Lord calls those that are afar off, it is equally true for them: the promise is unto you and to your children. Only in this light can it be understood that we read repeatedly in the Scriptures, that houses were baptized. I do not care one whit, whether you argue that there were little children in those houses or whether you maintain the very opposite. The fact is, that houses, families were baptized. It is the organic idea that is expressed. God deals with generations. It is only in this same light that everywhere children are considered as belonging to the Church, in the new dispensation as well as in the old. God establishes His Church in the line of continued generations.

Does that mean, that all the children according to the flesh in those generations are spiritual children of God, are the seed of Abraham? God forbid that we should teach this, or even maintain that we must suppose it! No, the children of the promise are counted for the seed, and they are not all Israel that are of Israel. But this true seed of Abraham is found in the generations of God's people.

Now it is the plainly revealed will of God, that these generations of the seed of Abraham shall receive the sign of the covenant, the seal of the righteousness which is by faith, the sign of regeneration, of the putting off of the old man of sin and the putting on of the new man in Christ, of repentance and the forgiveness of sin. This was God's ordinance for Abraham and his seed. "And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: every man-child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And be that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger which is not of thy seed," Gen. 17 :9-12. In the old dispensation, then, children, all children that were born in the generations of the seed of Abraham must receive the sign of circumcision, the seal of the righteousness which is by faith, of a new heart, of conversion and sanctification.​

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Please just participate in the discussion. You can discuss what the books say in comparison to what I have asked but I want to discourse with people not articles or books.

I understand but these are relevant and helped me when I was thinking the same as you. But you want my intereaction, well here goes.

The infants of believers are not included in the Covenant of Grace head for head. The seed of Abraham is Christ and the elect in him. God has made a covenant with them in eternity and realises this covenant in time. The Abrahamic Covenant was simply a revelation of the one CofG established in eternity.

Yep we are gonna disagree. Read Genesis chapter 17 like I asked. And I am not so sure you ever truly came to the conclusions I hold to. You don't know me and I don't know you.

Do you believe that the Mosaic is only an administrator of the Covenant of Grace. I see you think that of the Abrahamic Covenant. I disagree with you there. Because some aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant can be broken unlike the Covenant of Grace. And what do you do about all the promises that have to do with his seed according to the flesh? Both the seed (Christ) and the seed (his total lineage that proceeds from him) are mentioned in the Promises of the Covenant. Just Read Genesis chapter 17.

 

[AV1611]

Do you believe that the Mosaic is only an administrator of the Covenant of Grace.

I believe that the giving of the Law was gracious from God's introduction to it. It was given to a redeemed people:

Exodus 20:1, 2 "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."​

I see you think that of the Abrahamic Covenant. I disagree with you there. Because some aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant can be broken unlike the Covenant of Grace.

Would you care to elaborate?

And what do you do about all the promises that have to do with his seed according to the flesh?

There were no promises made to the fleshly seed as such for "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Romans 9:7, 8).

Although having said that this is the unfolding of redemptive history, from this the nation develops that the Law will be given to and from which Christ comes. These physical promises ought be understood typologically and so Canaan is a type of heaven.

I would point you to Jonathan Edward here.

II. There accompanied this a more particular and full revelation and confirmation of the covenant of grace than ever before. There had been before this two particular and solemn editions or confirmations of this covenant; one, to our first parents, soon after the fall; the other, to Noah and his family, soon after the flood. And now there is a third, at and after the calling of Abraham. It is now revealed to Abraham, not only that Christ should come; but that he should be his seed; and promised, that all the families of the earth should be blessed in him. And God repeated the promises of this to Abraham. The first promise was when he first called him, Gen. xii. 2. “And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing.” The same promise was renewed after he came into the land of Canaan, (Gen. xiii. 14-17.) Again after Abraham had returned from the slaughter of the kings, (Gen. xv. 5, 6.) And a fourth time, after his offering up Isaac, (Gen. xxii. 16-18.)

In this renewal of the covenant of grace with Abraham, several particulars concerning it were revealed more fully than before; not only that Christ was to be of Abraham’s seed, but also, the calling of the Gentiles, that all nations should be brought into the church, all the families of the earth made blessed. And then the great condition of the covenant of grace, which is faith, was now more fully made known. Gen. xv. 5, 6. “And he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Which is much noticed in the New Testament, as that for which Abraham was called the father of believers.

And as there was now a further revelation of the covenant of grace, so there was a further confirmation of it by seals and pledges; particularly, circumcision, which was a seal of the covenant of grace, as appears by the first institution of it, Gen. xvii. It there appears to be a seal of that covenant by which God promised to make Abraham a father of many nations, (Gen. xvii. 5, 9, 10.) And we are expressly taught, that it was a seal of righteousness of faith, Rom. iv. 11. Speaking of Abraham, the apostle says, he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of faith.

Abraham’s family and posterity must be kept separate from the rest of the world, till Christ should come; and this sacrament was the principal wall of separation. Besides, God gave Abraham a remarkable pledge of the fulfilment of the promise he had made him, in his victory over Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him. Chedorlaomer seems to have been a great emperor, who reigned over a great part of the world at that day; and though he had his seat at Elam, which was not much, if 544 any thing, short of a thousand miles distant from the land of Canaan, yet he extended his empire so as to reign over many parts of the land of Canaan, as appears by Gen. xiv. 4-7. It is supposed by learned men, that he was a king of the Assyrian empire at that day, which had been before begun by Nimrod at Babel. And as it was the honour of kings in those days to build cities for the seat of their empire, (Gen. x. 10-12.) so it is conjectured, that he had gone forth and built him a city in Elam, and made that his seat; and that those other kings who came with him, were his deputies in the several cities and countries where they reigned. But yet as mighty an empire as he had, and as great an army as he came with, Abraham, only with his trained servants, that were born in his house, conquered and subdued this mighty emperor, the kings that came with him, and all their army. This he received of God as a pledge of what he had promised, viz. the victory that Christ his seed should obtain over the nations of the earth, whereby he should possess the gates of his enemies. It is plainly spoken of as such in the 41st of Isaiah. In that chapter is foretold the future glorious victory the church shall obtain over the nations of the world, (Isa. xli. 1, 10, 15.) This victory of Abraham over such a great emperor and his mighty forces, is spoken of as a pledge and earnest of victory to the church, Isa. xli. 2, 3. “Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? He gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. He pursued them, and passed safely; even by the way that he had not gone with his feet.”

Another remarkable confirmation Abraham received of the covenant of grace, was when he returned from the slaughter of the kings; when Melchisedec the king of Salem, the priest of the most high God, that great type of Christ, met him, and blessed him, and brought forth bread and wine. The bread and wine signified the same blessings of the covenant of grace, that the bread and wine does in the sacrament of the Lord’s supper. As Abraham had a seal of the covenant in circumcision that was equivalent to baptism, so now he had a seal of it equivalent to the Lord’s supper. And Melchisedec’s coming to meet him with such a seal of the covenant of grace, on the occasion of this victory, evinces, that it was a pledge of God’s fulfilment of the same covenant. (Gen. xiv. 19, 20.)

Another confirmation of the covenant of grace, was the vision he had, in the deep sleep that fell upon him, of the smoking furnace, and burning lamp, that passed between the parts of the sacrifice, (Gen. xv.) The sacrifice signified that of Christ. The smoking furnace that passed through the midst of that sacrifice first, signified the sufferings of Christ. But the burning lamp that followed, which shone with a clear bright light, signifies the glory that followed Christ’s sufferings, and was procured by them.

Another remarkable pledge that God gave Abraham of the fulfilment of the covenant of grace, was his giving of that child of whom Christ was to come, in his old age, (Heb. xi. 11, 12. and Rom. iv. 18-25.) and his delivering Isaac, after he was laid upon the wood of the sacrifice to be slain. This was a confirmation of Abraham’s faith in the promise that God had made of Christ, that he should be of Isaac’s posterity; and was a representation of the resurrection of Christ. (Heb. xi. 17-19.) And because this was given as a confirmation of the covenant of grace, therefore God renewed that covenant with Abraham on this occasion, (Gen. xxii. 15-18.)

Thus you see how much more fully the covenant of grace was revealed and confirmed in Abraham’s time than ever it had been before; by means of which Abraham seems to have had a clear view of Christ the great Redeemer, and the future things that were to be accomplished by him. And therefore Christ informs us, that “Abraham rejoiced to see his day, and he saw it. and was glad,” John viii. 56. So great an advance did it please God now to make in this building, which he had been carrying on from the beginning of the world.​

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Do you believe that the Mosaic is only an administrator of the Covenant of Grace.

I believe that the giving of the Law was gracious from God's introduction to it. It was given to a redeemed people:

Exodus 20:1, 2 "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."​

I see you think that of the Abrahamic Covenant. I disagree with you there. Because some aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant can be broken unlike the Covenant of Grace.

Would you care to elaborate?

And what do you do about all the promises that have to do with his seed according to the flesh?

There were no promises made to the fleshly seed as such for "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Romans 9:7, 8).

[/INDENT]

I believe you are using the Romans 9 passage out of context and you need to read Genesis Chapter 17. There are promises made to those in the flesh and not in the Covenant of Grace.