The Doctrine of Hell

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The Lamb

Puritan Board Freshman
Three Translations; Help!

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Below I am going to present three translations of a passage from 1QS in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Don't ask me now why I believe the passage is significant; I'm only asking for help in interpreting the meaning of it right now. I do not profess to have all the answers. Also, if I detect that anyone responding has a RELIGIOUS or CONFESSIONAL bias, the response will mean nothing to me. I'm not interested in dogma regarding this issue, only proper translation and interpretation of what the ancient author meant. I'm not even discussing whether the teaching of the passage is right or wrong at this point. I do not have the original Hebrew but am trusting that the 3 variations will probably evidence the meaning when considered together. NOTE: This is a passage that both traditionalist (unending torment) and conditionalist (eventual annihilation) proponents of the doctrine of hell equally use to bolster their position. It is only one of many passages in the scrolls on the doctrine of final punishment.

Translation #1: And the visitation of all who walk in this spirit (the spirit of evil) shall be a multitude of plagues by the hand of all the destroying angels, everlating damnation by the avenging wrath of the fury of God, eternal torment and endless disgrace together with shameful extinction in the fire of the dark regions. The times of all their generations shall be spent in sorrowful mourning and in bitter misery and in calamities of darkness until they are destroyed without remnant or survivor.

Translation #2: And as for the Visitation of all who walk in this (Spirit), it consists of an abundance of blows administered by all the Angels of destruction in the everlasting Pit by the furious wrath of the God of vengeance, of unending dread and shame without end, and of the disgrace of destruction by the fire of the regions of darkness. And all their time from age to age are in most sorrowful chagrin and bitterest misfortune, in calamities of darkness till they are destroyed with none of them surviving or escaping.

Translation #3: The judgment of all who walk in such ways will be multiple afflictions at the hand of all the angels of perdition, everlasting damnation in the wrath of God's furious vengeance, never-ending terror and reproach for all eternity, with a shameful extinction in the fire of Hell's outer darkness. For all their eras, generation by generation, they will know doleful sorrow, bitter evil, and dark happenstance, until their utter destruction with neither remnant nor rescue.

Thanks to anyone who will even consider an attempt to sort out this difficulty.
 
First, some questions for you:

What do you mean when you say that certain persons use this Dead-Sea Scrolls (Qumranic?) text to "bolster" their position? Have some of the people you've read used this text as an "explanatory gloss" to establish that such and such a position was held to in the days of the OT or NT? Or have some such people used this as an authority, to establish some such doctrine or other? Why, ultimately, is it significant (in your judgment) to know what this passage means? How are "language experts" going to help you, without giving them a genuine text to work with (or a link)?

Trying to get answers to certain questions without giving much context for your inquiry, or reserving your complete motivations (while thankfully you are being honest and forthright about it), means people are likely to be equally guarded and curious as to why you are holding back. Better to be completely transparent, In my humble opinion.
 
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
First, some questions for you:

What do you mean when you say that certain persons use this Dead-Sea Scrolls (Qumranic?) text to "bolster" their position? Have some of the people you've read used this text as an "explanatory gloss" to establish that such and such a position was held to in the days of the OT or NT? Or have some such people used this as an authority, to establish some such doctrine or other? Why, ultimately, is it significant (in your judgment) to know what this passage means? How are "language experts" going to help you, without giving them a genuine text to work with (or a link)?

Trying to get answers to certain questions without giving much context for your inquiry, or reserving your complete motivations (while thankfully you are being honest and forthright about it), means people are likely to be equally guarded and curious as to why you are holding back. Better to be completely transparent, In my humble opinion.


I have no other motivation than understanding what the test says. I am studying the Doctrine of Hell in regards to unending torment vs final annihilation. So as you read what I wrote in the beginning, you see my question is clear.
 
Originally posted by webmaster
"Repent or Perish" by John Gerstner and
"Eternity Weighed in the Balance" by me
will put that question to rest overall.


Thank you Matthew. I am of the unending torment flavor. I was faced with the DSS and their implications. Thats why I was wondering what those verses meant.
 
Joseph,

Unless we are familiar with the DSS ourselves, or the tenor of any single full, extended-length work from the DSS, any statement on the meaning of that isolated passage is going to be conjectural at best. By way of analogy, how could anyone tell the theology or contextual teaching of, say, Benny Hinn, if all they had was a two-sentence sermon outtake? Or of Sproul or Calvin, for that matter? Hinn's could sound thoroughly orthodox, and the reformed men's suspect, or even outrageous.

The DSS, being products of a Jewish splinter-sect, contain a range of beliefs from the age when they were written that fall both within traditional norms and outside them. For my part, I refuse to comment on what the passage might mean. I have no context, broad or narrow. And the passage is not Scripture (so far as I know); therefore I have no Scriptural context to guide me either.

Sorry to be so unhelpful...


(see u2u)
 
And the passage is not Scripture (so far as I know); therefore I have no Scriptural context to guide me either.

This is a good point. Why are you trying to determine a translation of a non-Biblical text in discussing a Biblical doctrine?

What relevance does this "text" have to the discussion or to the process of determining truth?

Phillip

[Edited on 3-21-05 by pastorway]
 
Originally posted by pastorway
And the passage is not Scripture (so far as I know); therefore I have no Scriptural context to guide me either.

This is a good point. Why are you trying to determine a translation of a non-Biblical text in discussing a Biblical doctrine?

What relevance does this "text" have to the discussion or to the process of determining truth?

Phillip

[Edited on 3-21-05 by pastorway]


My goal is not to use this one text to decide a doctrine. My only goal is to ask someone who could possibly help me translate this in aramaic/hebrew. IT was presented in a discussion. There are many others, but I just thought I would start with one.

From what I have read of the DSS, I believe it conveys the thoughts of some present at the time they were written. They perhaps present a better OT exegesis than some Rabinnic scholars also.


I wrote: I'm not interested in dogma regarding this issue, only proper translation and interpretation of what the ancient author meant. I'm not even discussing whether the teaching of the passage is right or wrong at this point. I do not have the original Hebrew but am trusting that the 3 variations will probably evidence the meaning when considered together.


This is all I was asking for. If this presents a problem then I will look elsewhere. Thank you for your responses.


In His Grace


Joseph
 
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