The "reformed" Redemptrix

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fredtgreco

Vanilla Westminsterian
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The \"reformed\" Redemptrix

It was only a matter of time before the folks over at [size=-2]reformed[/size] Catholicism attempted to jump on the Redemptirx bandwagon.

The latest post is on Redemptoris Mater (note that the Latin literally means "mother of redemption" ):

http://www.reformedcatholicism.com/archives/2005/04/redemptoris_mat.html
April 06, 2005
Redemptoris Mater

Someone please show me the heresy in these words:

And now, standing at the foot of the Cross, Mary is the witness, humanly speaking, of the complete negation of these words. On that wood of the Cross her Son hangs in agony as one condemned. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows . . . he was despised, and we esteemed him not: as one destroyed (cf. Is. 53:3-5). How great, how heroic then is the obedience of faith shown by Mary in the face of Gods unsearchable judgments! How completely she abandons herself to God without reserve, offering the full assent of the intellect and the will to him whose ways are inscrutable(cf. Rom. 11:33)! And how powerful too is the action of grace in her soul, how all-pervading is the influence of the Holy Spirit and of his light and power! Through this faith Mary is perfectly united with Christ in his self-emptying. For Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men: precisely on Golgotha humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross (cf. Phil. 2:5-8). At the foot of the Cross Mary shares through faith in the shocking mystery of this self-emptying. This is perhaps the deepest kenosis of faith in human history. Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened. On Golgotha, Jesus through the Cross definitively confirmed that he was the sign of contradiction foretold by Simeon. At the same time, there were also fulfilled on Golgotha the words which Simeon had addressed to Mary: and a sword will pierce through your own soul also. Yes, truly blessed is she who believed!

Posted by Kevin at April 6, 2005 10:40 PM

In case you were wondering where the original quote came from to start with, wonder no more:

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya3a.htm
Church Teaching on Mary's Cooperation in the Redemption of Mankind

Compiled by Fr. William Most

1. Leo XIII, Encyclical, Iucunda Semper, Sept 8, 1884. ASS 27. 178.

For when she presented herself to God as a handmaid for the role of Mother, or when she totally dedicated herself with her Son in the temple, from each of these she was already then a sharer in the laborious expiation for the human race. Hence we cannot doubt that she greatly grieved in soul in the most harsh anguishes and torments of her Son. Further, that divine sacrifice had to be completed with her present and looking on, for which she had generously nourished the victim from herself. Finally this is more tearfully observed in the same mysteries: There stood by the Cross of Jesus, Mary His Mother ... of her own accord she offered her Son to the divine justice, dying with Him in her heart, transfixed with the sword of sorrow.

2. Leo XIII, Encyclical, Adiutricem populi, Sept. 5, 1895. ASS 28. 130-31.

For thereafter, by the divine plan, she so began to watch over the Church, so to be present to us and to favor us as Mother, that she who had been the minister of accomplishing the mystery of human redemption, would be likewise the minister of the dispensation of that grace, practically limitless power being given to her.

3. St. Pius X, Encyclical, Ad diem illum, Feb. 2, 1904, ASS 36. 453-55.

Hence that never disassociated manner of life and labors.... But when the final hour of her Son came, His Mother stood by the cross of Jesus, not just occupied in seeing the dread spectacle, but actually rejoicing that her Only-Begotten was being offered for the salvation of the human race. ... from this common sharing of sufferings and will, she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world, and so the dispensatrix of all the gifts which were gained for us by the death and blood of Jesus. ... She ... since she was ahead of all in holiness and union with Christ, and was taken up by Christ into the work of human salvation, she merited congruously, as they say, what Christ merited condignly, and is the chief minister of the dispensation of graces.

4. Benedict XV, Epistle, Admodum probatur, June 20, 1917. AAS 10. 182.

With her suffering and dying Son she suffered and almost died, so did she surrender her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of human beings, and to appease the justice of God, so far as pertained to her, she immolated her Son, so that it can be rightly said, that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race.

5. Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Explorata res est. Feb. 2, 1923. AAS 15. 104.

... the sorrowful Virgin shared in the work of redemption with Jesus Christ.... COMMENT: The word "sorrowful" shows this was a cooperation on Calvary, not just in the annunciation.

6. Pius XI, Encyclical, Miserentissimus Redemptor, May 8, 1928. AAS 20. 178.

May the kindly Virgin Mother of God be present and smile on these our prayers and undertakings, who, since she brought forth Jesus the Redeemer, fed Him, offered Him as a victim at the cross, by her hidden union with Christ, and an altogether singular grace from Him, was likewise the Reparatrix, and is devoutly called that.

7. Pius XI, Radiomessage to Lourdes, April 28, 1935. Osservatore Romano, April 29, 1935.

O Mother of piety and mercy, who as Coredemptrix stood by your most sweet Son suffering with Him when He consummated the redemption of the human race on the altar of the cross ... preserve in us, we beg, day by day, the precious fruits of the Redemption and of your compassion.

8. Pius XII, Encyclical, On the Mystical Body, June 29, 1943. AAS 35. 247.

She it was who, as the New Eve, free from every stain of original or personal sin, always most closely joined with her Son, offered Him to the Eternal Father together with the holocaust of her motherly rights and motherly love, for all the sons of Adam, defiled by his miserable fall.

9. Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima, May13, 1946, AAS 38. 266.

Jesus is King of the Eternal Ages by nature and by right of conquest; through Him, with Him, and subordinate to Him, Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest, and by singular choice [of the Father].

COMMENT: The same title by right of conquest, is given for both Jesus and Mary. A triple subordination is carefully expressed, therefore there should be no other reservation thought to be understood. Hence, with subordination, the title applies in the same way to each.

10. Pius XII, Apostolic Constitution, Munificentissimus Deus, Nov. 1, 1950. AAS 42. 768.

We must especially remember this, that starting in the second century, the Virgin Mary is presented by the holy Fathers as the New Eve, who, although subject to the New Adam, was most closely joined with Him in that struggle against the infernal enemy , which, as was foretold in the Protoevangelium, was to come to the most full victory over sin and death, which are always joined together in the writings of the Apostle of the Gentiles. Hence, just as the glorious resurrection of Christ was an essential part and final sign of this victory, so that struggle of the Blessed Virgin in common with her Son, had to be closed by the glorification of her virginal body."

COMMENT: In spite of the fears of some scholars, such as Altaner, the Pope found the Assumption in the sources of revelation in the New Eve theme, and more precisely, in her cooperation on Calvary, which was most close, to such an extent that the Pope even could speak of a struggle that was "common to the Blessed Virgin and her Son".

11. Pius XII, Encyclical, Fulgens corona, Sept. 8, 1953. AAS 45. 583.

... she was joined with her Only-begotten Son in the struggle against the most wicked infernal serpent.

12. Pius XII, Encyclical, Ad Caeli Reginam, Oct. 11, 1954. AAS 46. 634-35.

In accomplishing this work of the redemption, the Most Blessed Virgin Mary was certainly closely joined with Christ ... was associated with Jesus Christ, the very principle of salvation, by divine plan, and indeed in a way similar to that in which Eve was associated with Adam, the principle of death, so that we can say that the work of our salvation was accomplished according to a certain recapitulation ... and if she was joined with her Son, even on Golgotha, [and] she offered Him, together with the holocaust of her Mother's rights and love, like a New Eve, for all the sons of Adam, defiled by his wretched fall, as a result, beyond doubt, it is right to conclude that just as Christ, the New Adam should be called King not only because He is the Son of God, but also because He is our Redeemer, so by a certain analogy, the most Blessed Virgin is Queen, not only because she is the Mother of God, but also because as the New Eve she was associated with the New Adam

COMMENT: Mary acted in a way parallel to that of Eve, who did not receive a sin from Adam [as the German Mariology would imply] but in an effective and active way generated sin. Therefore Mary's work was not active receptivity , as the Germans assert, but an effective and active cooperation in generating the title for the Redemption.

13. John XXIII, Radiomessage to Eucharistic Congress of Italy at Catana, Sept. 13, 1959. AAS 51. 714.

We trust that they will imitate in her the most perfect model of union with Jesus, our Head; we trust that they will join Mary in the offering of the divine Victim....

14. John XXIII, Homily for the Canonization of St. Peter Julian Eymard. Dec. 9, 1962. AAS 65. 10.

Intimately associated in the Redemption in the eternal plans of the Most High, Our Lady, as Severianus of Gabala sang, is the mother of salvation, the fountain of light made visible.

15. Vatican II, Constitution on the Church, #58, #61.

So also the Blessed Virgin advance in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully bore with her union with her Son even to the cross, where, in accord with the divine plan, she stood, vehemently grieved with her Only-Begotten, and joined herself to His Sacrifice with a motherly heart, lovingly consenting to the immolation of the victim born of her.

In conceiving Christ, in giving birth to Him, in feeding Him, in presenting Him to the Father in the Temple, in suffering with Him, as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls.

COMMENT: Her cooperation was by way of obedience, which was the covenant condition. She cooperated officially "in accord with the divine plan": as the New Eve. She was made interiorly apt for this by the Immaculate Conception. Such a cooperation is clearly active, in generating the title for redemption.

16. John Paul II. Encyclical, Redemptoris Mater, March 25, 1987. AAS 79. 382. 83. Vatican Press Translation.

How great, how heroic then is the obedience of faith shown by Mary in the face of God's 'unsearchable judgments'! How completely she 'abandons herself to God without reserve, 'offering the full assent of the intellect and the will' to him whose 'ways are inscrutable.... Through this faith Mary is perfectly united with Christ in his self- emptying.... At the foot of the Cross Mary shares through faith in the shocking mystery of this self-emptying. This is perhaps the deepest 'kenosis'of faith in human history. Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death.... as a sharing in the sacrifice of Christ--the new Adam--it becomes in a certain sense the counterpoise to the disobedience and disbelief embodied in the sin of our first parents. Thus teach the Fathers of the Church and especially St. Irenaeus, quoted by the Constitution Lumen gentium: 'The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith.'

COMMENT: In his Apostolic Exhortation Redemptoris Custos, the same Pope said that in Redemptoris Mater, he intended to deepen the teaching of Vatican II on Mary's faith.


17. John Paul II, Allocution at the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Guayaquil, given on Jan 31, 1985, reported in L'Osservatore Romano Supplement of Feb. 2, 1985 and in English L'Osservatore Romano, March 11, 1985, p. 7.

Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (cf. Gal 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she 'lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth' (Lumen gentium #58) ... as she was in a special way close to the Cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary's role as co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son.

[Edited on 4/7/2005 by fredtgreco]
 
:eek:

I didn't even know that there was such a creature as a "reformed Catholic." Sounds almost like a contradiction in terms!
 
The word "Redmptrix" kind of conjures images of mine of a woman with a halo, sporting skin tight leather and whip. Hehehhe.
 
Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened.

I guess Kevin forgot that John was also at the foot of the cross (John 19:26)!
 
Originally posted by wsw201
Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened.

I guess Kevin forgot that John was also at the foot of the cross (John 19:26)!

I am not that Kevin. I mention this for clarity's sake. ;)
 
Originally posted by kevin.carroll
The word "Redmptrix" kind of conjures images of mine of a woman with a halo, sporting skin tight leather and whip. Hehehhe.

:ditto: :lol:

Glad I'm not the only one with this particular image in my head. Every time some Catholic whack-job starts spewing his verbal feces about the "Co-Redemptrix," this awful image of Eartha Kitt with a halo starts whizzing through my mind. God have mercy on me!

~a
 
Hey Fred....

You've noticed that our culture's gnosticism; postmodernistic (new agey/feminism/goddessism) thinking makes it possible for Romanists to talk like this? Right?

Doesn't this go back to Schlieremacher?

That whole description at the cross was nothing more than presumptious, subjective emoting --

Robin
 
Originally posted by kevin.carroll
The word "Redmptrix" kind of conjures images of mine of a woman with a halo, sporting skin tight leather and whip. Hehehhe.

I've never thought of that before... but from now on, every time I hear it, I'll get that image in my mind too.
 
A friend of mine was recently in the Philipines. He had the unfortunate duty of delivering a eulogy. The deceased was Catholic and the event was held in a Catholic church. My friend wanted to make a point about about Christ and direct people to a picture of Christ (sorry in advance to those who oppose pictures of Christ) but could find none. Instead, the church was filled with pictures (icons, etc.) of Mary. It is amazing how she seems to eclipse Christ in so many Catholic cultures. I live near Mexico and it is the same way there, at least on the border. Mary everywhere, Jesus hard to find.

I should note the exception to pictures of Christ in the Church were pictures of the infant being held by Mary.
 
I noticed something similar with many of the Mexicans here. Big pictures of Mary, with no sign of Jesus.

Here is a very informative radio show done on the Issues Etc. program that deals with Mary and her importance to the Roman Catholic Church today (In the context of an "agreement" with some Anglicans).
Check out the show done during hour three on May 17th.

http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_may05.htm


Bottom line, which I think is probably true is that the various doctrines regarding Mary rank above almost every other issue in terms of importance to the RC church today.
 
One of the big challenges looking toward the future and hoping, as Christ prayed, for a unified church will be how Protestants will convince Roman Catholics to contextualize Mary in more pastorally wise language. A certain level of honor for Mary is just going to be a part of the Christian tradition, it is inescapable, but this has developed in an unproductive and damaging direction in many ways in Roman Catholic theology. The most unfortunate thing of all is the two ex cathedra Marian doctrines - her immaculate conception and bodily assumption - which are born of speculation and have only the weakest connections to scripture. Having that kind of codified stance will make the Mary issue a real barrier to ecumenism as we go forward.

As for the term "reformed catholic" - we simply have to stick up for and fight for that term. The church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. We cannot let the adjective "Roman" be the only way in which the word "catholic" is used. "Reformed Catholic" is a great way to express a belief in the one church without also affirming the Roman version of the church. I, myself, try really hard to always say "Roman Catholic" and never just "Catholic" when I'm talking about the RC church because I don't want to lose ownership of catholicity - that's the whole point of catholicity, it breaks through barriers of geography and time.

One of the saddest things about looking at photos from my own PCA's General Assembly is how overwhelmingly white our denomination is, in the midst of a country where one in seven persons is hispanic, and in the south, where the PCA predominately lives, 55% of the population is African American. And yet when I see photos of gatherings of the Roman Catholic church, it truly is a worldwide communion in its membership and leadership, and that's pretty humbling. I'm frustrated by our narrowness, and I'm frustrated by Rome's theology and practice! My guess is there are a lot of poeple my age who feel the same way, and so "Reformed Catholic" fits us pretty well.
 
I have been outside Catholic churches where there are large statues of Mary with altars and burning incense. The locals come with offerings of flowers and lay them before the idol and pray to her. Some of these idols have lights aimed at them so that the white stone shines in the darkness and a glass case was around one of them to keep the crowds back.
 
"One of the saddest things about looking at photos from my own PCA's General Assembly is how overwhelmingly white our denomination is, in the midst of a country where one in seven persons is hispanic, and in the south, where the PCA predominately lives, 55% of the population is African American."

I am with you on this. The truly international nature of RC is impressive.
 
Originally posted by smallbeans
One of the saddest things about looking at photos from my own PCA's General Assembly is how overwhelmingly white our denomination is, in the midst of a country where one in seven persons is hispanic, and in the south, where the PCA predominately lives, 55% of the population is African American. And yet when I see photos of gatherings of the Roman Catholic church, it truly is a worldwide communion in its membership and leadership, and that's pretty humbling. I'm frustrated by our narrowness, and I'm frustrated by Rome's theology and practice! My guess is there are a lot of poeple my age who feel the same way, and so "Reformed Catholic" fits us pretty well.

Not sure were you got this number from, but the 2000 US Census identifies the following Southern states as having the highest percentage of African Americans; Louisiana (32%), Mississippi (36%), Georgia (29%), South Carolina (29%). If you want to include Maryland, they have 28%. All other Southern states have a percentage below 26%, so the number, at least officially, is far below 55%.

[Edited on 6-16-2005 by tcalbrecht]
 
The RCC is like the GOP is some ways. It has a "big tent" mentality (think of the Log Cabin Republicans, neo-Cons and devout Christians all voting for Bush). It would take something really extraordinary for someone to get excommunicated from the RCC (like being an anti-pope). You can be a pro-abortionist politician and partake of the Mass. You can be a feminist, Marxist and sodomite Roman Catholic likewise. There are all sorts of factions. Thus, I would say that Romanism projects a false unity. As a big as the Roman tent is, it still excludes pre-Vatican II adherents, Eastern Orthodox and of course Protestants. But it embraces Muslims, charismatics, Anglicans, pro-lifers and anyone who can make common cause with Rome. Strange bed-fellows, I say.
 
I was using US Census Bureau statistics from 2002 but I misunderstood the chart:

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/black.html

Here is what their summary chart says:

Northeast: 18.1% black / 20.5 % white (non-hispanic)
Midwest: 18.1 % black / 27.0 % white
South: 55.3% black / 33.3 % white
West: 8.6% black / 19.2 % white

But the meaning is that, taking the South, 55.3% of all blacks live in the south, while 33.3% of all whites live in the south. I was taking the stats in terms of "percent of the population" of the region. Sorry for that.

I guess I could revise the statement: the PCA is a largely Southern denomination, and the South is where most African Americans live, therefore it would seem like you'd have some better representation of African Americans in the PCA.
 
Well, I wouldn't say that Roman Catholicism "embraces" Muslims or pro-choicers. Its soteriology makes room for people to be saved in Christ who do not follow Christ consciously, and for pro-choicers, it simply has no church discipline at the local parish level.

Roman Catholicism just never cleans out its closets and so you have some places in the world where Christianity is combined with traditional religions in a syncretistic fashion. And as I said, there is no church discipline. It is really sad.

[Edited on 6-17-2005 by smallbeans]
 
PPJII kissing the Koran:

kiss-koran.jpg
 
I wonder if I'm still RC! Never asked. I assume that when you join another church you're not one anymore.

BTW, the syncretism was deliberate in Europe of the Middle Ages. The idea was to spread a political kingdom as far and wide as possible. True Christian conversion cannot be accomplished by the sword.
 
Syncretism is part of the strategy of Rome and has been since the days of Constantine up to the present day. Hence, Christmas and Easter and other pagan practices and pantheons of deities were adopted by Rome to make Christiantity more palatable. Since Vatican II, the strategy has broadened to co-opt the ecumenical movement (ha! ecumenical under the authority of the Roman Pontiff). That's part of why Rome has strange bed-fellows.

I don't know if I got crossed off the Vatican membership rolls when I was born again, but I suspect not. Having been baptized into the RCC, depending on which type of Romanist one speaks to, I could be considered an apostate or an erring brother saved despite my rejection of the "Church" due to the efficacy of my infant baptism. Rome used to baptize the children of Protestants and pagans against the will or without the knowledge of the parents; now they supposedly reject that, but believe such baptisms to be regenerating nevertheless. Once baptized, always Roman, they say. But thank God for leading me away from Rome and to the true church of Jesus Christ.
 
Syncretism is also part of Rome's strategy here in America too. Notice, only in America do Catholics and Protestants get along. That's because America is predominantly protestant. The Roman Catholics often try to portray themselves as evangelical, even talk like them sometimes, to try to assimilate more protestants. Even the Pope spoke of being "born again" while visiting, something he never says anywhere else in the world. And most protestants today buy it, hook, line, and sinker.
 
Fred Wrote:

The latest post is on Redemptoris Mater (note that the Latin literally means "mother of redemption" ):

In fairness to the guys who wrote that, "redemptoris" does not mean "of redemption" it means "of the redeemer". Mary is the Mother of the redeemer.
 
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