The Second Coming, Sort of...

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Don Kistler

Puritan Board Sophomore
I have a (dispensational) friend who was telling me that the "rapture" is not the same as the second coming, because, I kid you not, Jesus' feet do not touch the ground. Since we go to meet Him in the air, it is not an actual coming. The second coming is when Christ returns with the saints to rule and reign on the earth.

He also said that the Bible nowhere says that we will spend eternity in heaven. Believers will be in heaven only for 7 years during the Great Tribulation, and afterwards will spend eternity with Christ on the new earth.

Have any of you heard this stuff before?
 
That's what I grew up believing, and at Bob Jones University, that is what is taught in their Bible Doctrines class.

Incidentally, that is also when I stopped believing in the rapture. Their "proof" was too shaky and made me re-evaluate my eschatological position.
 
I grew up Word of Faith & then Calvary Chapel and they both taught exactly that. I still hear it today from many dispensationalist (actually I don't know any that don't believe that) That is how they get around saying there are 3 comings of the Lord.
 
I have a (dispensational) friend who was telling me that the "rapture" is not the same as the second coming, because, I kid you not, Jesus' feet do not touch the ground. Since we go to meet Him in the air, it is not an actual coming. The second coming is when Christ returns with the saints to rule and reign on the earth.

Yep, that is pretty standard dispensational fare. Quite frankly, I'm surprised you hadn't heard that before.

He also said that the Bible nowhere says that we will spend eternity in heaven. Believers will be in heaven only for 7 years during the Great Tribulation, and afterwards will spend eternity with Christ on the new earth.

Now this one... are you sure you're quoting him correctly? If you are, then he just made a mistake in regards to what his dispensationalism teaches. See, dispensationalism teaches that saints who are alive at the time of the rapture will get to go to heaven and hang out for 7 years, and then come and reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (with Jerusalem as his HQ)... and then, AFTER the millennium - then will come the rebellion, and the final defeat of the forces of evil, the final judgment and the New Heavens and the New Earth. Old school hard core Dispensationalists go so far as to teach that the destinies of the Church and Israel are forever distinct and separate, with the church inhabiting the New Heavens while Israel gets to inhabit the New Earth. More modern, or Progressive Dispensationalists, tend to maintain that God's purposes for the church and Israel are distinct until the millennial reign of Christ, where they sort of merge, with the result being that Jews and Christians get to spend forever holding hands singing Kumbaya on the New Earth after the judgment.
 
He also said that the Bible nowhere says that we will spend eternity in heaven. Believers will be in heaven only for 7 years during the Great Tribulation, and afterwards will spend eternity with Christ on the new earth.

Now this one... are you sure you're quoting him correctly? If you are, then he just made a mistake in regards to what his dispensationalism teaches. See, dispensationalism teaches that saints who are alive at the time of the rapture will get to go to heaven and hang out for 7 years, and then come and reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (with Jerusalem as his HQ)... and then, AFTER the millennium - then will come the rebellion, and the final defeat of the forces of evil, the final judgment and the New Heavens and the New Earth. Old school hard core Dispensationalists go so far as to teach that the destinies of the Church and Israel are forever distinct and separate, with the church inhabiting the New Heavens while Israel gets to inhabit the New Earth. More modern, or Progressive Dispensationalists, tend to maintain that God's purposes for the church and Israel are distinct until the millennial reign of Christ, where they sort of merge, with the result being that Jews and Christians get to spend forever holding hands singing Kumbaya on the New Earth after the judgment.

In my years as a fundamentalist, I went to three different churches who all taught through Revelation during my time there. I was taught the more modern view of dispensationalism. God would come down to earth after the millennium and final judgment, and heaven and earth would be the same place, essentially. Because wherever God is, heaven is, and God will be in the New Jerusalem city on earth.

Actually, come to think of it, I remember one pastor saying that the New Jerusalem would come out of heaven and hover above the earth. The church lived in the city and the rest of the nations lived on earth but could come visit the city.
 
He also said that the Bible nowhere says that we will spend eternity in heaven. Believers will be in heaven only for 7 years during the Great Tribulation, and afterwards will spend eternity with Christ on the new earth.

Now this one... are you sure you're quoting him correctly? If you are, then he just made a mistake in regards to what his dispensationalism teaches. See, dispensationalism teaches that saints who are alive at the time of the rapture will get to go to heaven and hang out for 7 years, and then come and reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (with Jerusalem as his HQ)... and then, AFTER the millennium - then will come the rebellion, and the final defeat of the forces of evil, the final judgment and the New Heavens and the New Earth. Old school hard core Dispensationalists go so far as to teach that the destinies of the Church and Israel are forever distinct and separate, with the church inhabiting the New Heavens while Israel gets to inhabit the New Earth. More modern, or Progressive Dispensationalists, tend to maintain that God's purposes for the church and Israel are distinct until the millennial reign of Christ, where they sort of merge, with the result being that Jews and Christians get to spend forever holding hands singing Kumbaya on the New Earth after the judgment.

In my years as a fundamentalist, I went to three different churches who all taught through Revelation during my time there. I was taught the more modern view of dispensationalism. God would come down to earth after the millennium and final judgment, and heaven and earth would be the same place, essentially. Because wherever God is, heaven is, and God will be in the New Jerusalem city on earth.

Actually, come to think of it, I remember one pastor saying that the New Jerusalem would come out of heaven and hover above the earth. The church lived in the city and the rest of the nations lived on earth but could come visit the city.

I was taught the same thing in college but with the added crazy of after all of that, believers would lose their bodies and become "one spirit with God" becoming one with him like some weird soup where there is no end to me and no end to someone else. They tended to use Jesus' prayer in John 17 as proof of this. Oh and the rebellious would be annihilated at end.
 
I still hear it today from many dispensationalist (actually I don't know any that don't believe that) That is how they get around saying there are 3 comings of the Lord.

I grew up in a Pentecostal church and they taught the same thing. And like you said, I figured it was their way of getting around the 3 comings of the Lord.
 
I frequent another forum where most are dispensationalists and pretty much they all say the same thing using pretty much the same words. It's a circular argument and I have never been able to make one of them go beyond the circle, it goes like this:

A- Where do you see this rapture doctrine?
B- It's right there in 1 Thes 4:13-18

A- But in verse 15 says that this is the coming of the Lord
B- It says the Coming of the Lord but it's not His second visible coming, it's the rapture

A- And how do you know that?
B- Because here His feet don't touch the earth

A- And how do you know that His feet don't touch the earth?
B- Because this passage is about the rapture, not the second coming.

I'm not joking, that's what they tell me.
 
Gee , to think that I once accepted all that stuff without a thought. I am sure my Dispensational friends still think it true, I would not ever bring it up, I have enough grief just trying to keep them straight about the Doctrines of Grace.:rolleyes:
 
He also said that the Bible nowhere says that we will spend eternity in heaven. Believers will be in heaven only for 7 years during the Great Tribulation, and afterwards will spend eternity with Christ on the new earth.

I think most of the Reformed who've thought about this agree that there will be a New Heavens and a New Earth where the redeemed, having been reunited with their bodies, will be with Christ forever after the intermediate state which is Heaven. The New Heavens and the New Earth will be transfigured, incapable of corruption, and free of sin. We will have glorified bodies.

"Heaven" in the sense of "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" and dwelling with Christ without the body, isn't forever. The Heavenly Kingdom is forever. In fact if we believe we're already in the Heavenly Kingdom.
 
The first part of that was taught at Calvary Chapel when I went there. Not sure about the second part...
I think the way Ben stated it was more along the lines of what they taught.
 
The rapture-is-not-the-second-coming-because-Jesus'-feet-never-touch-the-ground is still being taught at Biola/Talbot. It was taught in my NT Survey class last Spring. Funny thing is, I think very few of the students in the class bought into it.
 
I've seen Calvary Chapel mentioned several times on this thread, and I too have heard Dave Hunt/Tim Lahaye teach some of these very things. And yes, they do believe scripture supports their view.

Re: 'His feet don't touch the earth', they use Zech 14:4 "On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives" to distinguish between the rapture (1 Thess 4) and His 'actual' 2nd coming. Since this text explicitly mentions His feet hitting the earth, and the other one doesn't, people seem to think the position holds water.

Re: 'the church and Israel being distinct forever', they'd use Rev 21:24 "By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it" to say that the Gentiles will be able to visit and walk in and out of the New Jerusalem, but that only Jews reside there.

From what I have found, normal principles and rules of interpretation are often thrown out by saying 'we're taking it literal', which is their easy way out. Sadly, the fanaticism of such views and the fact that they do base it on random texts entraps many.
 
Zechariah 14 is one of those difficult apocalyptic passages that should be interpreted by easier and clearer passages from elsewhere in Scripture. As also Revelation 21.
 
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