Toledot and Colophon

[iainduguid]

I tend to the theory that we have written records from Adam. That necessarily predates anything else. Mesopotamian cuneiform may have been contemporary with later descendants but as Adams descendants the postulated clay tablets from Adam predate them. We are talking antediluvian records which necessarily predate later civilisations. It is interesting that we are really getting down to presuppositions.

Another way of putting it is not that we are getting down to presuppositions but we are delving deeply into speculation. I'm not sure that the Scriptures require us to take a position on whether writing was present from the beginning of mankind or was a later invention, or the relative date of cuneiform to other forms of script. Do we know for sure what language Adam and Eve spoke? Although I haven't read the book for a while, I suspect Wiseman's assumptions here are actually quite different from yours.

 

[RamistThomist]

I tend to the theory that we have written records from Adam. That necessarily predates anything else. Mesopotamian cuneiform may have been contemporary with later descendants but as Adams descendants the postulated clay tablets from Adam predate them. We are talking antediluvian records which necessarily predate later civilisations. It is interesting that we are really getting down to presuppositions.

I find it hard to believe that Adam's clay tablets survived the flood, unless you are arguing that the Sumerians and Akkadians found his tablets and preserved them.

 

[Eoghan]

I find it hard to believe that Adam's clay tablets survived the flood, unless you are arguing that the Sumerians and Akkadians found his tablets and preserved them.

One of the injustices inflicted on my family was that the family bible with the genealogical charts at the front went to a cousin in Cumbernauld. This was the WRONG cousin and an affront to the correct lineage (so I am told).

Family records were passed down from Adam and added to by others. How long did Noah take to build the Ark - the better part of a century as I recall. This was not a spontaneous cruise with lastminute .com. It was a planned departure with the removal van being built in the back yard. I assume that Noah took his "family Bible" or it's equivalent in written records into the Ark along with some gardening implements and maybe a loom and spinning wheel. He probably put wine onboard of the antediluvian vintage. I wonder how much that amphorae would fetch at auction today?

Culturally we are predisposed to dismiss the story of the flood and Creation as myths. I am coming around to the conviction that our working memory is able to consider only one or two ideas simultaneously. Everything else is in the shadows as feelings, a sense or predisposition - long term memory. This fits with all the facts and goes a long way to explain human nature.

Incredulity seems to be based on predispositions and imagining the only way to survive was outside the Ark to be discovered by a Sumerian archeological dig led by a Sumerian Indiana Jones. You are not picturing Noah walking up the ramp with a crate labelled "family records".

 

[RamistThomist]

One of the injustices inflicted on my family was that the family bible with the genealogical charts at the front went to a cousin in Cumbernauld. This was the WRONG cousin and an affront to the correct lineage (so I am told).

Family records were passed down from Adam and added to by others. How long did Noah take to build the Ark - the better part of a century as I recall. This was not a spontaneous cruise with lastminute .com. It was a planned departure with the removal van being built in the back yard. I assume that Noah took his "family Bible" or it's equivalent in written records into the Ark along with some gardening implements and maybe a loom and spinning wheel. He probably put wine onboard of the antediluvian vintage. I wonder how much that amphorae would fetch at auction today?

Culturally we are predisposed to dismiss the story of the flood and Creation as myths. I am coming around to the conviction that our working memory is able to consider only one or two ideas simultaneously. Everything else is in the shadows as feelings, a sense or predisposition - long term memory. This fits with all the facts and goes a long way to explain human nature.

Incredulity seems to be based on predispositions and imagining the only way to survive was outside the Ark to be discovered by a Sumerian archeological dig led by a Sumerian Indiana Jones. You are not picturing Noah walking up the ramp with a crate labelled "family records".

So...what evidence do you have that Noah took the Adamic Tablets onto the ark?

 

[Eoghan]

So...what evidence do you have that Noah took the Adamic Tablets onto the ark?

Are we talking photographic, eye witness accounts or literary evidence? While the former may be lacking the colophon hypothesis is points to the literary evidence within the text. Indeed if we follow the precept that the first occurrence sets the precedence for subsequent encounters, there is no toledoth for Genesis 1:1-2:3 but there is a colophon in 2:4 which the Good News translation calls a "history".

Apart from a firmly held conviction do you have any evidence to the contrary? The opening passage lacks the toledoth of your (?) position and the absence of a colophon in Josephs history is explained by the colophon hypothesis. The Good News translation adopts the colophon approach (unwittingly?) for the first passage and use of "toledoth" - then abandons it subsequently?

 

[RamistThomist]

While the former may be lacking the colophon hypothesis is points to the literary evidence within the text.

That's the thing needing to be proven. So far you are arguing in a circle.