ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
My pastor asked "Who is the true Vicar of Christ?"
I'll tell you his answer, just looking for thoughts here.
I'll tell you his answer, just looking for thoughts here.
Vicar of Christ
- Thread starter ReformedWretch
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The Church
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
A vicar is a representation. The HS would not be a representation per se, as the HS is God. The representation, or vicar of Christ/HS/God the Father, (here on earth) is the Church, not the pope.
[Edited on 4-23-2005 by Scott Bushey]
[Edited on 4-23-2005 by Scott Bushey]
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Our pastor said Holy Spirit, but good points Scott.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Ask your pastor if the HS is God? If He is God, and I know your pastor will agree, then He (the HS) is not a representation (or a vicar). The HS is no less God than Christ is God.
The Church universal is the true representation of Christ on Earth. The body is now a kingdom of Priests (1 Pet 2:5, 1 Pet 2:9, Rev 1:6, 20:6), we are the Royal Priesthood!
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/v/v0084800.html
[Edited on 4-24-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Scott, I think the point Adam's pastor was trying to make is that the Holy Spirit is the one whom operates in the Church on behalf of Christ. He was sent by Christ to point us to Christ, and conform us to Christ. He is the primary agent responsible for making Christ known both through the Word, the human instruments, and the supernatural calling and illumination. Without the rule of the Spirit, the Church is nothing more than a social club.
[Edited on 4-24-2005 by puritansailor]
[Edited on 4-24-2005 by puritansailor]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Way to go Noah! From the online etymology dictionary:
Moving to Ecclesiology
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Christ is still the head of the Church. I don't understand the necessity of a Vicar, nor do I see a Scriptural indication that there is one. Christ is King now, High Priest now, and Prophet now. He is the head of the body now.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The original question had to do with Rome's view that the pope is the true representation of Christ on Earth. The question over whether Christ is head was never challenged.
I still say that the Church universal is the representation here on Earth. The HS is not a REPRESENTATION; He is God.
The Holy Spirit is the representative of Christ on earth. He speaks all that Christ gives him to speak. The Church has its authority because of him.
turmeric
Megerator
Jesus represented the Father when He was hare on earth incarnate, not that He was not God, but He is not the Father, yet He said "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". Of course, Jesus had His own mission He was here to carry out, but representing the Father was part of it.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Rome never said that the pope WAs God (as vicar), but that here on Earth he was the representaion of God. The HS or Christ are NOT representations; They are God; one in the flesh and the other in spirit.
Representation:
The act of representing or the state of being represented.
Something that represents, as:
An image or likeness of something.
An account or statement, as of facts, allegations, or arguments.
An expostulation; a protest.
A presentation or production, as of a play.
The state or condition of serving as an official delegate, agent, or spokesperson.
The right or privilege of being represented by delegates having a voice in a legislative body.
A body of legislators that serve on behalf of a constituency.
Representative:
One that serves as an example or type for others of the same classification.
One that serves as a delegate or agent for another.
A member of a governmental body, usually legislative, chosen by popular vote.
A member of the U.S. House of Representatives or of the lower house of a state legislature.
adj.
Representing, depicting, or portraying or able to do so.
Authorized to act as an official delegate or agent.
Of or characteristic of government by representation.
Like or typical of others of the same class.
Jesus is not a representation of God; He IS God. The church represents Christ here on Earth.
[Edited on 5-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Representation:
The act of representing or the state of being represented.
Something that represents, as:
An image or likeness of something.
An account or statement, as of facts, allegations, or arguments.
An expostulation; a protest.
A presentation or production, as of a play.
The state or condition of serving as an official delegate, agent, or spokesperson.
The right or privilege of being represented by delegates having a voice in a legislative body.
A body of legislators that serve on behalf of a constituency.
Representative:
One that serves as an example or type for others of the same classification.
One that serves as a delegate or agent for another.
A member of a governmental body, usually legislative, chosen by popular vote.
A member of the U.S. House of Representatives or of the lower house of a state legislature.
adj.
Representing, depicting, or portraying or able to do so.
Authorized to act as an official delegate or agent.
Of or characteristic of government by representation.
Like or typical of others of the same class.
Jesus is not a representation of God; He IS God. The church represents Christ here on Earth.
[Edited on 5-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) wrote: "We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God." (1 Book of Gregory 9 Decret. c.3)
The Lateran Council addressing Pope Julius II in an oration delivered by Marcellus said: "Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." (Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618)
Pope Nicholas said of himself: "I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do"¦wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)
The RC New York catechism states: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth"¦by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth."
The title "Lord God the Pope" - these words appeared in the Canon Law of Rome. "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)
Writers on Canon Law say: "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Barclay Cap. XXVII p. 218 Cities Petrus Bertanous, Pius V)
Pope Nicholas I declared that "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who being God, cannot be judged by man." (Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can 7 Satis Evidentur Decret Gratian Primer Para)
Speaking the name of the Pope (a rhetorical device) Cardinal Manning said: "I acknowledge no civil superior, I am the subject of no prince, and I claim more than this, I claim to be the supreme judge on earth and director of the consciences of men, I am the last supreme judge of what is right and wrong." (Sermon in the Pro Cathedral, Kensington, Tablet Oct 9, 1864)
Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Bible, 2 Thess. 2.4: "...so the antichrist here mentioned is some usurper of God's authority in the Christian church, who claims divine honours; and to whom can this better apply than to the bishops of Rome, to whom the most blasphemous titles have been given, as Dominus Deus noster papa--Our Lord God the pope; Deus alter in terrâ--Another God on earth; Idem est dominium Dei et papæ--The dominion of God and the pope is the same?"
The Lateran Council addressing Pope Julius II in an oration delivered by Marcellus said: "Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." (Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618)
Pope Nicholas said of himself: "I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do"¦wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." (Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)
The RC New York catechism states: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth"¦by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth."
The title "Lord God the Pope" - these words appeared in the Canon Law of Rome. "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (The Gloss extravagances of Pope John XXII Cum. Inter, tit XIV Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)
Writers on Canon Law say: "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Barclay Cap. XXVII p. 218 Cities Petrus Bertanous, Pius V)
Pope Nicholas I declared that "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who being God, cannot be judged by man." (Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can 7 Satis Evidentur Decret Gratian Primer Para)
Speaking the name of the Pope (a rhetorical device) Cardinal Manning said: "I acknowledge no civil superior, I am the subject of no prince, and I claim more than this, I claim to be the supreme judge on earth and director of the consciences of men, I am the last supreme judge of what is right and wrong." (Sermon in the Pro Cathedral, Kensington, Tablet Oct 9, 1864)
Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Bible, 2 Thess. 2.4: "...so the antichrist here mentioned is some usurper of God's authority in the Christian church, who claims divine honours; and to whom can this better apply than to the bishops of Rome, to whom the most blasphemous titles have been given, as Dominus Deus noster papa--Our Lord God the pope; Deus alter in terrâ--Another God on earth; Idem est dominium Dei et papæ--The dominion of God and the pope is the same?"
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Andrew,
What is your impression of the data you present? I am sure you are not seeing these quotes as implying that the pope is god here on Earth.
What is your impression of the data you present? I am sure you are not seeing these quotes as implying that the pope is god here on Earth.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Andrew was simply refuting that assertion, I believe (with his posted quotations). Correct me if I'm wrong.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Thats what I'm asking.......I'll re-read the quotes as I don't think they state that the pope IS God, but a representative of God.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
The Pope does in essence and in fact claim to be not just a vicar or representative of God but claims titles and the authority of Deity which belong to God alone.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The quotes are interesting, to say the least. However, I do not think they mean that the Pope is God in the way you interpret the statements.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
So then do you believe the pope thinks he is part of the trinity? If he thinks he is God, then would he not have to be part of the trinity?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Also, if the pope is more than vicar then why do they give him the title of vicar?
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
To clarify, I have never said that the Pope is God. Obviously, I am not a Roman Catholic, I am a Protestant. I have only said that the Pope claims the titles and authorities of Deity which belong to God alone.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
I dunno. Why do they give him the title "Lord God"?
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
I have no idea what the Pope thinks in terms of where he fits in to the Trinity.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Sorry Andrew,
I didn't mean to sound as if I implied that......
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Ok,
Then to wrap up my portion of this discussion: I was only trying to clearify what the term representative and vicar literally meant. Based upon what Andrew presents, I see that Rome does not take the terms literally. I still stand on the idea that Christ and the HS are not representations and that the universal body of Christ, i.e. the church are the physical representations here on Earth.
[Edited on 5-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Then to wrap up my portion of this discussion: I was only trying to clearify what the term representative and vicar literally meant. Based upon what Andrew presents, I see that Rome does not take the terms literally. I still stand on the idea that Christ and the HS are not representations and that the universal body of Christ, i.e. the church are the physical representations here on Earth.
[Edited on 5-7-2005 by Scott Bushey]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Ok, no worries! Just wanted to set the record straight!
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