Vos on Infant Baptism

[Stephen L Smith]

I am a Reformed Baptist now questioning my Reformed Baptist convictions I am interested in specific helpful paedobaptst resourses that might help in my situation:

1. I am planning on getting Vos' Reformed Dogmatics soon. I noted in the section on the sacraments, the introduction states "Approximately 60 percent more attention is given to baptism alone than to eschatology, ... The in-depth discussion of the church and of the sacraments will repay careful reading in any number of places. Even those who disagree at points—say, in the case made for infant baptism—will be stimulated by the challenge to their own thinking." Does Vos make a substantial case for the paedobaptist position?
2. Other advice/resourses that would be relevant to those of us from a Reformed Baptist position (including the 1689 Federalism) would be much appreciated.

 

[Beezer]

When I was exploring Presbyterianism I was pointed to the books below. They were helpful by and large.

1. William the Baptist by James Chaney
2. Christan Baptism by John Murray
3. Infant Baptism by Samuel Miller
4. The Case for Covenantal Infant Baptism edited by Gregg Strawbridge
5. On Being Presbyterian by Sean Michael Lucas
6. Why does the OPC Baptist Infants booklet

If comfortable with it can you open up some about what prompted the reevaluation of your RB convictions?

 

[Cymro]

Stephen, I have been re-reading this the last three weeks, ‘The Presbyterian Doctrine of Children in the Covenant’, An historical study of the significance of infant baptism in the Presbyterian Church of America by Lewis Bevens Shenck PH.D. (New Haven: Yale University Press. London : Oxford University Press. 1940. The book is based upon his dissertation to the faculty of the Graduate School of Yale University for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy. I read it as a young Christian but find it more compelling at this stage of my pilgrimage. Interestingly he shows how Thornwell and Dabney held a divergent view to historic Paedobaptism, and were opposed by the orthodox. Whether the book is available now I do not know.
The above mentioned book William the Baptist, though not highly doctrinal, yet it is a brilliant little book that has changed the minds of Baptists to whom I have given it.
By the way, the Doctor would not know the difference between the oval ball and the spherical! And the depression you mentioned would not fit into his book Spiritual Depression. But I think his diagonistic skills would decipher why they wear all Black.

 

[greenbaggins]

The best books arguing the case for paedo-baptism (in my opinion) are the following: Word, Water, Spirit, by J.V. Fesko (a theology of baptism as a whole that includes a 30 page or so defense of the paedo position; this is a book I read through in the editing process); The Biblical Doctrine of Infant Baptism, by Pierre Ch. Marcel (this is probably the best single treatment of the paedo position). The Strawbridge volume mentioned above is excellent, as is the Baptism: Three Views, with the contribution by Sinclair Ferguson.

 

[Beezer]

The best books arguing the case for paedo-baptism (in my opinion) are the following: Word, Water, Spirit, by J.V. Fesko (a theology of baptism as a whole that includes a 30 page or so defense of the paedo position; this is a book I read through in the editing process).

I forgot I had this on my book shelf. Good to know it is held in such high esteem. I'll have to add it to the queue to read.

 

[Beezer]

Stephen,

As you reexamine your RB views I recommend the books below to circle back around to after you've read some of the recommended paedo books. All four are written from a covenantal perspective (as an RB would understand it).

1. A Critical Evaluation of Infant Baptism by Greg Welty
2. The Fatal Flaw by Jeffrey D. Johnson
3. The Baptism of Disciples Alone by Fred A. Malone.
--
[Edit: 4. Infant Baptism and the Covenant of Grace by Paul K. Jewett]

 

[Solparvus]

I am a Reformed Baptist now questioning my Reformed Baptist convictions I am interested in specific helpful paedobaptst resourses that might help in my situation:

1. I am planning on getting Vos' Reformed Dogmatics soon. I noted in the section on the sacraments, the introduction states "Approximately 60 percent more attention is given to baptism alone than to eschatology, ... The in-depth discussion of the church and of the sacraments will repay careful reading in any number of places. Even those who disagree at points—say, in the case made for infant baptism—will be stimulated by the challenge to their own thinking." Does Vos make a substantial case for the paedobaptist position?
2. Other advice/resourses that would be relevant to those of us from a Reformed Baptist position (including the 1689 Federalism) would be much appreciated.

As someone who changed his view recently from the Reformed Baptist position, nothing has helped like making the Scriptures my primary resource. Prayerfully go through the passages, take notes, study them, reason from them, compare Scripture with Scripture. Study in such a way as to come to a conclusion from which you will never move. Take as long as needed and don’t change too quickly, even if you have to study a few months at a time, until you can say that you are bound in conscience by Scripture one way or another.

As a help, my sticking point was the New Covenant, and one RB pastor I know said he could agree with the PB position were it not for Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. That was the case for me. You might go through all the passages that open up the NC and see what they all say.

I wish I had a resource on Federalism. I can only tell you that I read half of “Fatal Flaw” and found it wanting. However, study the covenants themselves from Scripture, think on them, pray, and God will give you light. You will find the Old Testament to shine as a burning light

If you want a good starting resource from a lifelong friend of the Reformed Baptist churches, give a listen to Ted Donnelly. He deserves a fair hearing for his faithful and loving service to the RB brothers.

https://www.monergism.com/legacy/mt/mp3/baptism-mp3-series-edward-donnelly

May God bless your study brother! I think you will see a great difference in not only how you see baptism and the children, but also God Himself, the church, and the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

The best books arguing the case for paedo-baptism (in my opinion) are the following: Word, Water, Spirit, by J.V. Fesko (a theology of baptism as a whole that includes a 30 page or so defense of the paedo position; this is a book I read through in the editing process); The Biblical Doctrine of Infant Baptism, by Pierre Ch. Marcel (this is probably the best single treatment of the paedo position). The Strawbridge volume mentioned above is excellent, as is the Baptism: Three Views, with the contribution by Sinclair Ferguson.

I have an extra copy of Fesko’s book which helped me understand the biblical viewpoint on infant baptism. I think it is the best resource to help you think through this. Stephen Smith—you can PM me with your shipping address and I will send it to you.

 

[JP Wallace]

I think you must read James Bannerman's "The Church of Christ", I found it the most helpful, in tying together all the threads of Covenant Theology into its applications.

 

[py3ak]

Vos' discussion is about 40 pages, and quite meaty.

Personally, I found a lot of the literature on infant baptism to be unpersuasive and off-putting: some of that is due just to taking things for granted or a lack of clarity in explanation. Once the basics have been clearly explained, it's much more possible to profit from some of those discussions. B.B. Warfield's little essay on "Christian Baptism" was about the best thing, followed by Baptism: Three Views.

 

[Solparvus]

Vos' discussion is about 40 pages, and quite meaty.

Personally, I found a lot of the literature on infant baptism to be unpersuasive and off-putting: some of that is due just to taking things for granted or a lack of clarity in explanation. Once the basics have been clearly explained, it's much more possible to profit from some of those discussions. B.B. Warfield's little essay on "Christian Baptism" was about the best thing, followed by The Meaning of Baptism: Three Views.

I ran into this problem too.

If I may, this is one reason I highly recommend Ted Donnelly’s messages on baptism.

 

[Beezer]

Stephen, I have been re-reading this the last three weeks, ‘The Presbyterian Doctrine of Children in the Covenant’, An historical study of the significance of infant baptism in the Presbyterian Church of America by Lewis Bevens Shenck PH.D. (New Haven: Yale University Press. London : Oxford University Press. 1940....Interestingly he shows how Thornwell and Dabney held a divergent view to historic Paedobaptism, and were opposed by the orthodox.

I just read an excerpt from an article Thornwell wrote in the Southern Presbyterian Review Volume 13 (1861) on how the church is to treat baptized infants.

"Precisely as she treats all other impenitent and unbelieving men - she is to exercise the power of the keys, and shut them out from the communion of the saints. She is to debar them from all the privileges of the inner sanctuary. She is to exclude them from their inheritance until they show themselves meet to possess it...Are they not the slaves of sin and the Devil, existing in a free Commonwealth for the purpose of being educated to the liberty of the saints?....But, until they come to him, it distinctly teaches that they are to be dealt with as the Church deals with all the enemies of God."​

Wow. I thought I was reading a different "James" from South Carolina for a moment (James P. Boyce)! Ha!

 

[SavedSinner]

Stephen, I have been re-reading this the last three weeks, ‘The Presbyterian Doctrine of Children in the Covenant’, An historical study of the significance of infant baptism in the Presbyterian Church of America by Lewis Bevens Shenck PH.D. (New Haven: Yale University Press. London : Oxford University Press. 1940. The book is based upon his dissertation to the faculty of the Graduate School of Yale University for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy. I read it as a young Christian but find it more compelling at this stage of my pilgrimage. Interestingly he shows how Thornwell and Dabney held a divergent view to historic Paedobaptism, and were opposed by the orthodox. Whether the book is available now I do not know.
The above mentioned book William the Baptist, though not highly doctrinal, yet it is a brilliant little book that has changed the minds of Baptists to whom I have given it.
By the way, the Doctor would not know the difference between the oval ball and the spherical! And the depression you mentioned would not fit into his book Spiritual Depression. But I think his diagonistic skills would decipher why they wear all Black.

I have not read Schenck, but I have heard SS teachers use it and I heard presumptive regeneration over and over from it. Important for credo baptists to keep in mind, is that not all paedo baptists believe in presumptive regeneration. Maybe it was the southern presbyterians who were actually orthodox, rather than the "orthodox".

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

If you dive into books on baptism, two things occur, you are doing yourself a disservice, and then you are relying on another's study, not your own. Doing that will take longer, and it will cause you to consider things backward. That in turn causes your theology to be a shakey because you are relying on someone else instead of your own study. The sign of the covenant is the last 10 minutes on a week's study on covenant theology. Don't look at the sacraments first, look to understanding the continuity of CT first. That means understanding, clearly, the CoR, the CoW, and the CoG.

Start with prayer, reliance on the Spirit, and Scripture. There is no substitute for your own study on Jeremiah 30-33 and Hebrews, which, honestly, in light of the whole of Scripture, are not as difficult as one might imagine.

Then, any good CT book that follows Westminster (or agrees with it) would be helpful.

I'd start with Francis Roberts, Thomas Blake, Rutherford, Witsius or Turretin. Then, after that, start working on books on the covenant sign. (Michael Harrison's (1640-1729) work, Infant Baptism God's Ordinance, is simple, but devestating to the non-paedo position).

 

[JTB.SDG]

Brother, Lord-willing I'll be launching a web-site on Covenant Theology by the end of March. There's a lengthy section there in the Abrahamic Covenant on the topic of infant baptism as it relates to Genesis 17 and other Scriptures. Lots of quotes also from the Puritans and Vos. Not sure if I'm allowed here to name the sight (does anyone know?)

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Brother, Lord-willing I'll be launching a web-site on Covenant Theology by the end of March. There's a lengthy section there in the Abrahamic Covenant on the topic of infant baptism as it relates to Genesis 17 and other Scriptures. Lots of quotes also from the Puritans and Vos. Not sure if I'm allowed here to name the sight (does anyone know?)

Yes you can name the site or a link to it. Please let us know if any second commandment violations are possibly seen at the site.

AMR

 

[Scott Bushey]

I’m wth Matt on the subject. On needs to start at God’s covenant to understand sacramentology. You don’t ant to get the cart in front of the horse right out of the chute. As a former particular Baptist, the watershed point has got to be released from the NT to Genesis for any success. Thinking covenantally, removes any watershed emphasis. If u are a PB, u may not want to admit any presuppositions, but they are there and are surely directing your thinking against true covenantalism.

 

[ZackF]

In case you don’t have enough, Jay Adams wrote a helpful tract on baptism.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

If comfortable with it can you open up some about what prompted the reevaluation of your RB convictions?

My great love for the Westminster Confession and seeing if my RB views actually stand up to theological scrutiny

 

[Stephen L Smith]

The above mentioned book William the Baptist, though not highly doctrinal, yet it is a brilliant little book that has changed the minds of Baptists to whom I have given it.

Thank you. I have heard others speak highly of this book so hope to track it down.

By the way, the Doctor would not know the difference between the oval ball and the spherical! And the depression you mentioned would not fit into his book Spiritual Depression. But I think his diagonistic skills would decipher why they wear all Black.

says

 

[Stephen L Smith]

The best books arguing the case for paedo-baptism (in my opinion) are the following: Word, Water, Spirit, by J.V. Fesko (a theology of baptism as a whole that includes a 30 page or so defense of the paedo position; this is a book I read through in the editing process);

Thanks for the suggestions. Joel Beeke speaks very highly of this book. Some Reformed Baptist pastors have responded to this though I have not looked much into their responses. But I'll look into the book.

The Biblical Doctrine of Infant Baptism, by Pierre Ch. Marcel (this is probably the best single treatment of the paedo position).

Some Reformed Baptist friends have told me this book has a strong presumptive regeneration approach that is 'almost' baptismal regeneration. I did wonder if it was consistent with the thrust of Bavinck's "Saved by Grace" (a book which has been tremendous help to me).

I recently ordered the Hebrews Reformed Expository Commentary by Phillips that you recommended. I guess his comments on Heb 10 and on the new covenant will be helpful too.

Lane, you did not respond to my Vos' comments even though we have agreed about the link between Vos and extra growth in sanctification I have now quoted Bavinck as well as Vos. Does that put me ahead in sanctification?

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Stephen,

As you reexamine your RB views I recommend the books below to circle back around to after you've read some of the recommended paedo books. All four are written from a covenantal perspective (as an RB would understand it).

1. A Critical Evaluation of Infant Baptism by Greg Welty
2. The Fatal Flaw by Jeffrey D. Johnson
3. The Baptism of Disciples Alone by Fred A. Malone.
--
[Edit: 4. Infant Baptism and the Covenant of Grace by Paul K. Jewett]

I have all these but all were written before the modern 1689 Federalism movement.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

If you want a good starting resource from a lifelong friend of the Reformed Baptist churches, give a listen to Ted Donnelly. He deserves a fair hearing for his faithful and loving service to the RB brothers.

https://www.monergism.com/legacy/mt/mp3/baptism-mp3-series-edward-donnelly

Thanks for the advice and encouragement Harley. I have just started listening to these sermons carefully. It was actually your shift to Paedobaptism that got me thinking

 

[Stephen L Smith]

The sign of the covenant is the last 10 minutes on a week's study on covenant theology. Don't look at the sacraments first, look to understanding the continuity of CT first. That means understanding, clearly, the CoR, the CoW, and the CoG.

Thank you for the reminder. The 1689 Confession 7:3 links together the CoR and the CoG but uses Gen 3:15 as this link. So one of my challanges is to link this to a true understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant.

I'd start with Francis Roberts, Thomas Blake, Rutherford, Witsius or Turretin. Then, after that, start working on books on the covenant sign. (Michael Harrison's (1640-1729) work, Infant Baptism God's Ordinance, is simple, but devestating to the non-paedo position).

Thank you for the suggestions. I recently purchased Blake so aim to give him a careful read. Actually I was recently reading Vos' "Doctrine of the covenant in Reformed theology" and he stated that Blake deals with the important and 'thorny' issues.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Brother, Lord-willing I'll be launching a web-site on Covenant Theology by the end of March. There's a lengthy section there in the Abrahamic Covenant on the topic of infant baptism as it relates to Genesis 17 and other Scriptures. Lots of quotes also from the Puritans and Vos. Not sure if I'm allowed here to name the sight (does anyone know?)

Yes would be interested. Also it would be helpful if you interact with modern Reformed Baptists including 1689 Fedralism.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

As a former particular Baptist, the watershed point has got to be released from the NT to Genesis for any success.

Appreciated your advice. Note that the 1689 Confession 7:3 does start with Genesis. It starts with Gen 3:15.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Thank you everyone for your advice. A lot to think on. I probably won't do individual responses in the future to the same degree but always appreciate insights on this spiritually challanging topic. As a matter of interest, one of the most recent 1689 Federalism essays I am working through is Sam and Micah Renihams presentation at WS Cal. Interested in any responses .

 

[greenbaggins]

Thanks for the suggestions. Joel Beeke speaks very highly of this book. Some Reformed Baptist pastors have responded to this though I have not looked much into their responses. But I'll look into the book.


Some Reformed Baptist friends have told me this book has a strong presumptive regeneration approach that is 'almost' baptismal regeneration. I did wonder if it was consistent with the thrust of Bavinck's "Saved by Grace" (a book which has been tremendous help to me).

I recently ordered the Hebrews Reformed Expository Commentary by Phillips that you recommended. I guess his comments on Heb 10 and on the new covenant will be helpful too.

Lane, you did not respond to my Vos' comments even though we have agreed about the link between Vos and extra growth in sanctification I have now quoted Bavinck as well as Vos. Does that put me ahead in sanctification?

Mea culpa, Stephen, mea culpa. I repent in dust and ashes. You are now most definitely more sanctified than I because of your supereragotory work in quoting Vos AND Bavinck. That's definitely fewer years spent in purgatory for you, my friend.

 

[Solparvus]

Thank you everyone for your advice. A lot to think on. I probably won't do individual responses in the future to the same degree but always appreciate insights on this spiritually challanging topic. As a matter of interest, one of the most recent 1689 Federalism essays I am working through is Sam and Micah Renihams presentation at WS Cal. Interested in any responses .

I’m going to take a look at it more in-depth at some point and I might have some thoughts later, but the best thing to do is study the covenant passages yourself and think and meditate on them and pray over them. Sorry for the broken record, though it’s the only way to secure a sound position one way or another.

One big answer to the view about the Abrahamic Covenant presented here (and not the only one) is that it’s not at all how the AC is explained or applied in the NT, especially in Hebrews. Circumcision in Paul’s mind in Romans 4 is not primarily annexed to a promise of land east of the Mediterranean, and to a physical people descended from Abraham, but to a promise of salvation by free grace in which the one who believes will receive a full righteousness apart from works and the forgiveness of sins. So, I’d go a step further and ask how this sign and seal of a real and experienced salvation by free grace for Abraham gets turned around on his descendants to be a sign and seal of a temporary, earthly, works-based covenant that only incidentally preaches the Gospel through types and shadows.

That’s all I can write for now. But brother, a study of the Scriptures themselves will yield a great reward to you, and give you a foundation from which you’ll never be moved.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

Ligon Duncan’s RTS class on Covenant Theology is free online and very helpful to understand the foundation of infant baptism.