Wavering of Faith

[TheBlackPuritan1785]

Greetings all! I have been speaking with my brother about his wavering faith for a while and he's been really "distraught and tired" about thinking about all these things. He's talked with his own pastor but has since left the church. A bit of background about him: confessed faith in Christ later in his life, very much in the reformed tradition, has a background in computer science and AI tech, and started working with people in the AI field who really challenged his Christian beliefs and now he feels as though all he was taught about Christianity is not true. He believes AI will take over and become so godlike intelligent it will prove the Bible wrong. Belong is a link to his own personal thoughts and struggles and he has given permission for people to reach out to him and answer his questions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...lKrS5cdZpRX1UQknkdLstCv2jyqC8q2zvgcUcKSf01TPD

I myself and subject to any questions you may have of me concerning this, but I figured I post it here as one of the things I can try within my power. Thank you all, God bless, and pray for my brother and his family (his wife is still very much A Christian, they met and were married when he professed Christ, but now she feels her world has been thrown upside down).

 

[Ulster Fry]

Greetings all! I have been speaking with my brother about his wavering faith for a while and he's been really "distraught and tired" about thinking about all these things. He's talked with his own pastor but has since left the church. A bit of background about him: confessed faith in Christ later in his life, very much in the reformed tradition, has a background in computer science and AI tech, and started working with people in the AI field who really challenged his Christian beliefs and now he feels as though all he was taught about Christianity is not true. He believes AI will take over and become so godlike intelligent it will prove the Bible wrong. Belong is a link to his own personal thoughts and struggles and he has given permission for people to reach out to him and answer his questions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...lKrS5cdZpRX1UQknkdLstCv2jyqC8q2zvgcUcKSf01TPD

I myself and subject to any questions you may have of me concerning this, but I figured I post it here as one of the things I can try within my power. Thank you all, God bless, and pray for my brother and his family (his wife is still very much A Christian, they met and were married when he professed Christ, but now she feels her world has been thrown upside down).

Have read a bit of the link so far. I may be able to reach out if he's interested (providentially I've just finished marking and may have a bit of time). My background is in philosophy of religion and I have struggled with similar doubts before.

 

[TheBlackPuritan1785]

Have read a bit of the link so far. I may be able to reach out if he's interested (providentially I've just finished marking and may have a bit of time). My background is in philosophy of religion and I have struggled with similar doubts before.

Thanks brother! I would really appreciate that

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Joe @TheBlackPuritan1785 , good to meet you here on PB! A few thoughts:

Daniel, I am far from as smart and intellectual as you, but, at 82, and having plumbed some depths in the abyss and heights in the human heart, have some experience with God. The apostle Paul said,

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God (1 Cor 2:4,5).​

There is a difference between brain and spirit. Machines – programmed by geniuses of various sorts – may way out-perform merely human wisdom and knowledge. God does not speak into, or appeal to, merely human wisdom. To have knowledge of God, the Almighty, the Creator and Redeemer, pertains to a knowing far deeper than intellect of the brain – including that of the machines it makes. It pertains to the simple experience of the ineffable glory of a divine Person. This may be known only in the heart or spirit of a man, not, primarily or initially, in the mind.

This glory – the infinite majesty, power, and love of this Being – and the intercourse of our depths with His depths, is far beyond, and deeper than, the mere intellectual cognizance and brilliance of secular wisdom.

Joe, and Daniel, a merely intellectual knowing of the LORD almighty is a superficiality that may be swept away by greater yet superficial knowing. What is known in the spirit or heart of man – known as a man or woman know one another in intimate erotic / ontologic embrace (as a type) – this inner knowing cannot be swept away by greater experience, as there is no greater experience than this. To know the LORD is to be united with Him in utter depth unto depth. As Paul says, "nothing in all creation, shall be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:39).

Death, torture, temptation, brilliant realities, exquisite beauties – nothing can sever the bond between the human soul and the Mighty One of Israel, Jesus of Nazareth, who is God the eternal Son.. A "faith" in Him that can be severed is misconstrued, and must be reexamined and renewed, or must perish.

Daniel, if your faith in Christ is real – as I have formulated this reality as above – it shall survive. If not, you may appeal to Him for a more immediate, or direct, encounter, sufficient to overpower that which was merely intellectual assent. He has said, "the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out or turn away" (John 6:37). He sits on the throne of majesty, known also as the mercy seat, and receives the humble heart.

 

[Ulster Fry]

Thanks brother! I would really appreciate that

I've read the whole document. There's another one he wants the reader to read on AI which I will try to do later this week.

Rather than give my thoughts here, I will probably message you privately, and see if something can be arranged.

 

[davejonescue]

I think it may help with acknowledging that first, there is a very good reason to fear not only AI, but also other advances in technology. Just within the past 30-40 years, home computers went from only being able to hold 500mb HD's with a bulk the size of a micro-wave; now being able to store multiple TB's on the size of credit cards. As AI advances, it will in turn be able to further the advancement of AI. Brain mapping and cohesion of material and organic parts is happening; meaning they are already able to make blind people see images, by hooking up wires to various parts of the brain. Not to mention the Nano front, and probably a whole slew of other technologies I am oblivious to. That is just in 30-40 years. Now imagine a 100 years from now if the Lord tarries. There may very well be a society like "Altered Carbon," where people view the organic as mere "skins" and instead consider "life" the totality of their cognitive memory that is preserved on their "disks." And instead of the spiritual answer to eternity, their answer will be technological. And, ultimately this may be the choice, that is, believers willing to forsake pseudo-physical immortality, and die, as not to be enslaved to their corruption; or non-believers forsaking their "appointment" with death, and be enslaved in their corruption. (Regardless if the latter doesnt avoid judgment by their attempt at pseudo-eternity; it could be considered a mark that they were willing to side with the forces that they felt provided it.) Plus, let us not forget, they have already successfully cloned mammals, and you can bet somewhere, some billionaire is working on the technology for humans as we speak.

The reason I mention this, is even Jesus tells us "you can look to the sky and discern the weather, but you cannot discern the times?" We do not know the day nor hour of the Lords return, it is up to Him how far he wants things to go. The thing is though, for a skeptic, there are already plenty of things that can "prove the Bible wrong." Even Paul says "our preaching is foolishness to those who are perishing." It wont take the highest form of AI to objectively prove Christianity false; because believers already believe despite the impossibility of all of the miracles in the bible according to secular reasoning. No matter how advanced technology gets, Biblical ethics will adjust accordingly. Even if our bed were in Hell, He would be there. Even if they supposedly found the bones of Jesus, the just shall live by faith. The choice will always be the world, or God.

So yes, there is a reason to be very apprehensive of the future, in terms of what technology will introduce; but for believers we have assurance that we are over-comers despite whatever war Satan or the world can wage. But the one thing we do not have to fear is Christianity being proven false. This is because every genuine Saint is not assured by their intellectual or evidential investigation, but by the confirmation of the Spirit within them when they read the Word of God.

 

[Laborer for the Lord]

I was going to commend a few quotes that I had collated from my own previous apologetics encounters, but I think that @Ulster Fry is far more technically literate than I am and that @Jerusalem Blade has largely tread the ground better than I could. Just know that your friend is certainly not alone in this experience, as I can personally testify to. I would personally commend to him a commentary or devotional exposition of 1 John, which I hold to be of particular value when struggling with the issue of faith and assurance. Ultimately, I think that modern education, and computer science in particular, has a very mechanistic, skeptical bent to its epistemology, and that your friend may be feeling its effects quite strongly. I'm sure that other users can recommend resources to help remedy those gnawing doubts that so eat away at our souls. Just know that I, and my whole church, will be praying for him.

John Searle's Chinese room thought experiment was the beginning of my eyes opening to the true limitations of computer learning and caused me to take a sober view of so-called "AI" and its capabilities. The Bible firmly roots the image of God in man not first and foremost in 'reasoning' but in spiritual knowledge, holiness, and righteous living. I think that a review of these topics may be of some help here.

 

[alexanderjames]

I recognise the severe loss of assurance. That doesn't mean this man is unsaved. But it can feel like drowning.

Someone in this position must decide whether they will commit to seek God in humility, taking one step after another with faith upon the word of the Gospel. The way to overcome loss of assurance is by the Gospel and taking God at His word. It could take years to overcome doubts and fears. But God says to the humble believing penitent that grace is given and in due time He will lift you up. And if you do belong to Him, He will keep you, evidenced by your reliance upon Him.

Remember the words of the Lord Jesus
- "if anyone would come after Me he must deny himself, take up the cross and follow Me" .
One thing I picked up on was the relationship to p0rnography. A justification of this behaviour as not being sinful suggests a symptom of a deeper issue. It is clear from the word of God. Jesus said anyone who looks at a woman to lust after them has committed adultery in his heart. If you're going to follow Christ it means submitting to all His words, rencouncing all sin and self, and pursuing Him with a sincere heart.

If you have sinned, confess and receive the forgiveness of God at the cross. God is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Justice is satisfied because the Lord Jesus Christ took our sin upon Himself and paid the price for our redemption. I am by nature totally condemned, a child of wrath, and to appear before the judgment of the Almighty I would find myself utterly destitute of all hope. But Christ stood in my place. He suffered for my sake in order to bring me to God. We are called to receive the good news by faith. Only unbelief stands in the way, so do not despair. Christ died for sinners. He calls the sick. He calls sinners to repentance, to Himself, to receive of His satisfaction and salvation. There is now therefore no condemnation for those in Christ.
These are the truths that must be meditated upon and prayed over.

The worst thing to do would be to listen to the counsel of the world and separate oneself from church and faithful Christians.
Make no mistake, this is spiritual warfare. The devil is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

 

[Ed Walsh]

Greetings all! I have been speaking with my brother about his wavering faith for a while and he's been really "distraught and tired" about thinking about all these things. He's talked with his own pastor but has since left the church. A bit of background about him: confessed faith in Christ later in his life, very much in the reformed tradition, has a background in computer science and AI tech, and started working with people in the AI field who really challenged his Christian beliefs and now he feels as though all he was taught about Christianity is not true. He believes AI will take over and become so godlike intelligent it will prove the Bible wrong. Belong is a link to his own personal thoughts and struggles and he has given permission for people to reach out to him and answer his questions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...lKrS5cdZpRX1UQknkdLstCv2jyqC8q2zvgcUcKSf01TPD

I myself and subject to any questions you may have of me concerning this, but I figured I post it here as one of the things I can try within my power. Thank you all, God bless, and pray for my brother and his family (his wife is still very much A Christian, they met and were married when he professed Christ, but now she feels her world has been thrown upside down).

I think it may help with acknowledging that first, there is a very good reason to fear not only AI, but also other advances in technology. Just within the past 30-40 years, home computers went from only being able to hold 500mb HD's with a bulk the size of a micro-wave; now being able to store multiple TB's on the size of credit cards. As AI advances, it will in turn be able to further the advancement of AI. Brain mapping and cohesion of material and organic parts is happening; meaning they are already able to make blind people see images, by hooking up wires to various parts of the brain. Not to mention the Nano front, and probably a whole slew of other technologies I am oblivious to. That is just in 30-40 years. Now imagine a 100 years from now if the Lord tarries. There may very well be a society like "Altered Carbon," where people view the organic as mere "skins" and instead consider "life" the totality of their cognitive memory that is preserved on their "disks." And instead of the spiritual answer to eternity, their answer will be technological. And, ultimately this may be the choice, that is, believers willing to forsake pseudo-physical immortality, and die, as not to be enslaved to their corruption; or non-believers forsaking their "appointment" with death, and be enslaved in their corruption. (Regardless if the latter doesnt avoid judgment by their attempt at pseudo-eternity; it could be considered a mark that they were willing to side with the forces that they felt provided it.) Plus, let us not forget, they have already successfully cloned mammals, and you can bet somewhere, some billionaire is working on the technology for humans as we speak.

Your whole post was excellent, though I limit my remarks to the AI problem. There is an answer, and I think it is the only hope for a beneficial AI-dependent future. The answer is simple and should be looked at seriously by AI-savvy believers as a push-back against the sure-to-come AI landscape dominated by the World's view as enslaved by the "god of this world." (2 Corinthians 4:4)

What will the AI future look like? If I accomplish nothing else, I hope at least to give you pause in optimism about an AI future. Without a special work of the Lord, I think there is no doubt that these AI pseudo-lifeforms, although able to think at near lightspeed, have no soul–worse–an ungodly soul. They will, of necessity, adopt this world's ways and be confused about, well, just about everything.

To the extent that future AI mimics life, it may be given a Christian mind (heart). That sounds too easy. Maybe, but consider that it would be way easier to make a Christian-like AI than a Christ-like flesh-and-blood human. Ask any faithful pastor.

Thoughts?

We can end this now if I am too far off-topic, but I hope this will be discussed in future threads.

Ed

PS I have no special qualifications to speak authoritatively on this subject. These are my ideas.