Westminster Bookstore

[Vonderplatz]

I received an email from Westminster Bookstore asking me to consider giving to them to keep them open. I have always appreciated their site because they do a decent job of not selling the loonies, and I can send people to their site without too much fear. My question is that though I do not agree with every book they sale, are they a worthwhile place to send my money? After my church of course!

 

[SolaSaint]

Do they do this every year? I have purchased from them but I didn't receive an e-mail. but it has been a while. I hate to see good businesses like this struggling.

 

[Logan]

Do they sell at a loss or is it just low volume? I'm just curious why they would be struggling as a business.

 

[SolaSaint]

Should have read my e-mail today, I did get the e-mail..LOL

 

[Jack K]

I got the email too. It explains that Amazon continues to operate as a loss leader (selling at prices that don't allow the company to make a profit in order to try to destroy the competition) and this makes it hard for other booksellers to stay in business. The problem for you and me, of course, is that we can't depend on Amazon to point us to good, Reformed books... nor can Reformed publishers count on Amazon to draw attention to their products. The WTS Bookstore email makes this point:

Our conviction is that without alternatives to Amazon, important gospel-centered and biblically faithful resources would not receive the attention they deserve, or even worse, would not be published at all. Our ambition is to increase the reach and demand for theologically sound books so that publishers and authors are encouraged to produce and invest in like-minded projects.

They're right. They're a ministry. They're doing us and the larger church an important service. They do help sound books get published and sold. For the time being, anyway, they rely on some gifts to stay in business, and anyone who helps them out is doing a good thing.

 

[SolaSaint]

Good point Jack.

 

[Rayn]

Yeah I try to buy from them whenever I want a good book. If I don't buy from them, I usually don't even go to Amazon, but to Lifeway and get jipped while supporting a store that doesn't blush to have Joel Osteen and Max Lucado on its shelves. :|

If you have a little money to spare, I think it's a good investment.

 

[ooguyx]

I got the email too. It explains that Amazon continues to operate as a loss leader (selling at prices that don't allow the company to make a profit in order to try to destroy the competition) and this makes it hard for other booksellers to stay in business.

Actually, Amazon doesn't post any accounting profit, but that doesn't imply that they are a loss leader. In fact if you look at their cash flow statement, they post massive cash inflows from operations. Accounting profit and loss is affected by many things such as depreciation, amortization, derivative cash flow hedges, foreign currency transaction gains & losses, cost structure, and on and on and on; much of which has little to nothing to do with sales expenses and is very different than the general notion of what profit is.

Not to hijack this thread, but I found their email to be grossly illiterate and misleading about these financial issues. Further to base their pitch for donations on this faulty information is irresponsible. We should expect that none other than the Westminster bookstore would exercise some due diligence before sending this email. I currently have a strongly worded letter typed up to the director about this, but I'm waiting until tomorrow to send it; perhaps some sleep will convince me to make it less strongly worded in the morning.

Still, I won't be giving to them until this is cleared up.

 

[irresistible_grace]

I got the email too. It explains that Amazon continues to operate as a loss leader (selling at prices that don't allow the company to make a profit in order to try to destroy the competition) and this makes it hard for other booksellers to stay in business.

Actually, Amazon doesn't post any accounting profit, but that doesn't imply that they are a loss leader. In fact if you look at their cash flow statement, they post massive cash inflows from operations. Accounting profit and loss is affected by many things such as depreciation, amortization, derivative cash flow hedges, foreign currency transaction gains & losses, cost structure, and on and on and on; much of which has little to nothing to do with sales expenses and is very different than the general notion of what profit is.

Not to hijack this thread, but I found their email to be grossly illiterate and misleading about these financial issues. Further to base their pitch for donations on this faulty information is irresponsible. We should expect that none other than the Westminster bookstore would exercise some due diligence before sending this email.
...
I won't be giving to them until this is cleared up.

I prefer Reformation Heritage Books myself because they actually operate more like a "ministry" than Westminster Bookstore does In my humble opinion

Let me know if Westminster ever "clears this up."

 

[DMcFadden]

I got the email too. It explains that Amazon continues to operate as a loss leader (selling at prices that don't allow the company to make a profit in order to try to destroy the competition) and this makes it hard for other booksellers to stay in business.

Actually, Amazon doesn't post any accounting profit, but that doesn't imply that they are a loss leader. In fact if you look at their cash flow statement, they post massive cash inflows from operations. Accounting profit and loss is affected by many things such as depreciation, amortization, derivative cash flow hedges, foreign currency transaction gains & losses, cost structure, and on and on and on; much of which has little to nothing to do with sales expenses and is very different than the general notion of what profit is.

Not to hijack this thread, but I found their email to be grossly illiterate and misleading about these financial issues. Further to base their pitch for donations on this faulty information is irresponsible. We should expect that none other than the Westminster bookstore would exercise some due diligence before sending this email. I currently have a strongly worded letter typed up to the director about this, but I'm waiting until tomorrow to send it; perhaps some sleep will convince me to make it less strongly worded in the morning.

Still, I won't be giving to them until this is cleared up.

I agree with you about the financial reductionism of ignoring the way cash flow and revenue differ in writing such an appeal letter. However, don't get so attached to the technicalities of the finance simplification that you loose the main point. Their central argument seems to be that (for whatever reason) Amazon consistently offers prices below what any brick and mortar bookstore can afford to provide on a sustainable basis. If people do all of their buying from Amazon, places like Westminster will disappear.

The same might be said for local Christian stores. Even granting the high percentage of "Jesus junk," chotskies, and theologically suspect materials, I MISS the presence of Christian bookstores. Where I work in L.A., you can hardly find a Christian store; several have gone out of business in the face of the internet discounters.

Perhaps we are moving to new paradigms of consumption and distribution (cf. the analogy of the dying/dead Blockbuster video store model) of theological materials. But, if you like having theologically solid materials available on a concentrated or reliable basis, we should all lament the potential loss of a Westminster bookstore.

 

[ZackF]

I got the email too. It explains that Amazon continues to operate as a loss leader (selling at prices that don't allow the company to make a profit in order to try to destroy the competition) and this makes it hard for other booksellers to stay in business.

Actually, Amazon doesn't post any accounting profit, but that doesn't imply that they are a loss leader. In fact if you look at their cash flow statement, they post massive cash inflows from operations. Accounting profit and loss is affected by many things such as depreciation, amortization, derivative cash flow hedges, foreign currency transaction gains & losses, cost structure, and on and on and on; much of which has little to nothing to do with sales expenses and is very different than the general notion of what profit is.

Not to hijack this thread, but I found their email to be grossly illiterate and misleading about these financial issues. Further to base their pitch for donations on this faulty information is irresponsible. We should expect that none other than the Westminster bookstore would exercise some due diligence before sending this email. I currently have a strongly worded letter typed up to the director about this, but I'm waiting until tomorrow to send it; perhaps some sleep will convince me to make it less strongly worded in the morning.

Still, I won't be giving to them until this is cleared up.

I agree with you about the financial reductionism of ignoring the way cash flow and revenue differ in writing such an appeal letter. However, don't get so attached to the technicalities of the finance simplification that you loose the main point. Their central argument seems to be that (for whatever reason) Amazon consistently offers prices below what any brick and mortar bookstore can afford to provide on a sustainable basis. If people do all of their buying from Amazon, places like Westminster will disappear.

The same might be said for local Christian stores. Even granting the high percentage of "Jesus junk," chotskies, and theologically suspect materials, I MISS the presence of Christian bookstores. Where I work in L.A., you can hardly find a Christian store; several have gone out of business in the face of the internet discounters.

Perhaps we are moving to new paradigms of consumption and distribution (cf. the analogy of the dying/dead Blockbuster video store model) of theological materials. But, if you like having theologically solid materials available on a concentrated or reliable basis, we should all lament the potential loss of a Westminster bookstore.

Okay, I'll rattle on a bit about the other side of the coin. Perhaps the seminary can adopt an Amazon Store model for the website part of their business like bloggers of all stripes have for their favorite/recommended books. I find no reason why Brick and Mortar pricing has to be the same as online pricing. People go online for price and/or convenience. People do the same at B&M and get to see the merchandise first. If an outlet wants an online business presence, they need an online business model that is profitable to the consumer as well. If they are not concerned about profit they need to set up a non-profit, subsidized store to distribute selected material. It sounds like that is kind of what they are doing if they are asking for donations. Nothing wrong with that per se but I think strong consideration should be made for setting up some kind of permanent endowment/trust as part of a long term strategy. People will grow weary of donating especially if they think they have already paid a premium price for books.

Unless I missed something, I noticed they only sell the Elect Standard Version of the Bible....why is that? I prefer the NASB, KJV and NKJV over ESV (though I find the notes in my Reformation Study Bible helpful).

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Good points all. I would have preferred them to have simply appealed to the desire that, if they are of value, to be willing to spend a little bit more money. Amazon is not simply a retail operation but also are the biggest player in the Cloud Infrastructure as a Service (IAAS) market. That means they build a ton of infrastructure and operate another business altogether not related to their sale of books and other goods. What Amazon primarily specializes is efficiency. It's what all the strong retailers (Walmart, CostCo, etc) specialize in. They're also not the only company that benefits from the tax-exempt status of online retailers.

I guess my whole point is that complaining about the effect of large companies crushing the little guy (or perhaps inferring that they're insidiously destroying the competition by operating at a loss) detracts greatly from the appeal. I've often thought of the WTS Bookstore in the past as an option to buy books for personal or Church use. I would have simply preferred the reminder to ask me to consider buying from them more often rather than implying that Amazon is putting everyone out of business by nefarious tactics. Knowing a bit about Amazon, they're taking over because they're incredibly efficient. If you just look at those figures, it's amazing how little the loss is in terms of balancing the build of massive infrastructure for expansion with incoming revenue from other business sectors. From a geek perspective, considering the breadth of their IT operations alone, it makes you sit back in wonder.

 

[ZackF]

Good points all. I would have preferred them to have simply appealed to the desire that, if they are of value, to be willing to spend a little bit more money. Amazon is not simply a retail operation but also are the biggest player in the Cloud Infrastructure as a Service (IAAS) market. That means they build a ton of infrastructure and operate another business altogether not related to their sale of books and other goods. What Amazon primarily specializes is efficiency. It's what all the strong retailers (Walmart, CostCo, etc) specialize in. They're also not the only company that benefits from the tax-exempt status of online retailers.

I guess my whole point is that complaining about the effect of large companies crushing the little guy (or perhaps inferring that they're insidiously destroying the competition by operating at a loss) detracts greatly from the appeal. I've often thought of the WTS Bookstore in the past as an option to buy books for personal or Church use. I would have simply preferred the reminder to ask me to consider buying from them more often rather than implying that Amazon is putting everyone out of business by nefarious tactics. Knowing a bit about Amazon, they're taking over because they're incredibly efficient. If you just look at those figures, it's amazing how little the loss is in terms of balancing the build of massive infrastructure for expansion with incoming revenue from other business sectors. From a geek perspective, considering the breadth of their IT operations alone, it makes you sit back in wonder.

Excellent points. In many respects Amazon is just a highway and a well maintained one at that.

 

[FenderPriest]

Should you support Westminster? Yes. Because every book they sell is good or absolutely solid in every respect? No. That's not how you judge a good bookstore to support. They offer confessionally guided material sure, but they're over all emphasis is on supporting the work of Christ with thoughtful, Christ honoring books at prices that are competitive. Not every book is great and I'm sure we'd all disagree - but we're in fellowship together and these are "our guys", we shouldn't seek too many ways to divide when we don't need to. If you have the extra money, and want to support them, then give boldly for the cause of Christ.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I buy my theologically sound books from whomever will sell them cheapest.

 

[irresistible_grace]

I buy my theologically sound books from whomever will sell them cheapest.

Me too! RHB, CBD, Amazon & PBay

 

[Jack K]

I find the WTS Bookstore to be very competitive pricewise, with great shipping rates especially on large orders. I seldom find myself paying more or waiting longer for a book because I've chosen the WTS Bookstore over Amazon. The WTS Bookstore seems to be working hard to please their customers. I don't shop with them just to support their work. I also shop with them because they provide the books I'm looking for, quickly and at a great price.

 

[Andres]

I buy my theologically sound books from whomever will sell them cheapest.

 

[Mushroom]

Amazon may be the paragon of efficiency, and I could buy Calvin's Institutes from them at a better price than Westminster, but one thing I can be sure of, I'll never find the Bhagavad Gita available for sale at Westminster...

Are we called to show preference to the masters of efficiency, or to the household of God?

 

[JoannaV]

I'm guessing you can use Amazon to buy used books from Christians?

 

[psycheives]

I used to buy my books wherever they were cheapest. But since noticing many bookstores were going out of business, I had to reconsider if I wanted my favorite type of bookstores to still be around. If I continued supporting Amazon and CBD over Reformed bookstores (Westminster Bookstore (which had to reduce in size), Heritage Bookstore, Monergism Bookstore (which had to close already)), then I was in effect supporting the guys who sell Osteen and all the false teachers over the guys who actually screen their Christian books. I value these 3 places because I can send my less discerning Christian family and friends to them and trust almost any book they pick will be of some spiritual value and not lead them to heresy-ville. This is a valuable resource!

It doesn't ultimately matter whether the letter was worded poorly... (please show some brotherly compassion toward your well-meaning Christian brother who sent it) ... the essential idea is true: Westminster bookstore cannot compete with Amazon prices and hope to stay in business. In just the last few months, the bookstore has already relocated and reduced in size.

I'm a poor single (no spouse to put me through) seminary student and I find a way to buy my books from these 3 sources (which are often almost the same price as Amazon). I no longer buy from CBD *at all* because they promote so many false teachers.

 

[Edward]

I generally buy from the small bookstore in the church basement when I want a hard copy of a book. Almost always cheaper than buying online. Before that, I ran an account at the PCA denominational bookstore.

 

[Andres]

I used to buy my books wherever they were cheapest. But since noticing many bookstores were going out of business, I had to reconsider if I wanted my favorite type of bookstores to still be around. If I continued supporting Amazon and CBD over Reformed bookstores (Westminster Bookstore (which had to reduce in size), Heritage Bookstore, Monergism Bookstore (which had to close already)), then I was in effect supporting the guys who sell Osteen and all the false teachers over the guys who actually screen their Christian books. I value these 3 places because I can send my less discerning Christian family and friends to them and trust almost any book they pick will be of some spiritual value and not lead them to heresy-ville. This is a valuable resource!
It doesn't ultimately matter whether the letter was worded poorly... (please show some brotherly compassion toward your well-meaning Christian brother who sent it) ... the essential idea is true: Westminster bookstore cannot compete with Amazon prices and hope to stay in business. In just the last few months, the bookstore has already relocated and reduced in size.
I'm a poor single (no spouse to put me through) seminary student and I find a way to buy my books from these 3 sources (which are often almost the same price as Amazon). I no longer buy from CBD *at all* because they promote so many false teachers.

WTS Books sells books authored by Doug Wilson and N.T. Wright. Your logic seems flawed.

 

[irresistible_grace]

RHB doesn't sale books by Douglas Wilson.

 

[irresistible_grace]

I buy a lot of my homeschool curriculum from CBD (Saxon etc.) & have to admit that the member magazines I get in the mail almost make me vomit but until my membership runs out in 2017 ... they remain on my list for "least expensive go to" websites (AFTER Reformation Heritage Books)